Cern Lhc/alice/atlas

[Robert Marsh II]

Thanatos; I know my own feelings, and they are that of curiosity bordering concern, but not of paranoia.

Paranoia is defined by needless fear based upon unsubstantiated facts.

CERN LHC is attempting to utilize a Super-Computer GRID, with it's main foundation built upon Artificial Intelligence (see pdf url below).

The ongoing debated question is, can this GRID make major impact mistakes, and could it possibly achieve and become sentient (self-aware)? Could this lead to an almost human-like emotional state, and react in a 'moody' fashion, or perhaps in an unresponsive way to LHC commands. This of course would take time to evolve, but who can say for sure: how long?


http://www.isi.edu/%7Edeelman/ieee_is04.pdf


High-power computer cluster to sift through LHC data - MIT News Office

The GRID system is unlike anything we have ever seen before, and is tied into an extreme number of computers around the world. As the LHC program grows over the next ten years, so will the GRID's matrix potential. This type of accessing will magnify the learning potential exponentially, and could have unforeseen positive and/or negative outcomes, upon the LHC central command and control core.

Man has been brought down by fate throughout human history on many occasions, this reoccuring down-fall usually is preceded by the phrase: "Aw, that'll never happen" or "Oh, that's impossible", and at least once as: "It's Unsinkable"!

[Century 25]

I think all that we have going for the human race is the quest for knowledge. I think life is worth living largely on the basis of learning new and exciting things about us & our universe..

I side with Sagan & Clarke (Arthur C.) et al, as to science vs ignorance & all that goes with that. The dark-agers busy counting their $$$ see science & knowledge as dangerous to their way of 'life'

The idea of CERN being able to create a vast black hole is very.. well, 99.99999999999% a laugh. if we had to, to save our very asses.. and given a century & unlimited $$$.. we couldn't create a black hole. We probably could 'destroy' ourselves.. but not via a black hole. The universe is an extremely volatile place.. and black holes are not your 'dime a dozen' type events. Our meager efforts are tiny compared to the.. 'natural' events rending the galaxies and stars into black holes, supernovas.. or just the crunch of a star into a 'dwarf' stage.

If you want to put your money where your actual feelings are.. visit: Long Bets - On the Record: Bets

As for the artificial intelligence, CERN/GRID thoughts, check the bet & $ riding on: “By 2029 no computer - or "machine intelligence" - will have passed the Turing Test.” - read here: Long Bets - By 2029 no computer - or "machine intelligence" - will have passed the Turing Test.

[Robert Marsh II]

Fortunately I have been to Las Vegas fourteen times, and have some rudimentary gambling skills, but when I visited Long Bets I realised quickly, that these skills would not be necessary afterall.

I admit that I thought you had something here, for about a minute and a half, but after analysis realised several flaws:

1. Long Bets is just a general and unofficial gambling site, with 'no' substantial scientific validity.

2. Kapor: bets that no machine by 2029 will pass the Turing test: Although Kapor is the claimed founder of Lotus (read bio), he is in no scientifically-based background position to be taken seriously. He is known as the predictor, therefore he predicts. At this time 309 people(45%) side with his 'belief'.

3. Kurzweil: also in no position to be taken seriously, is known as the challenger who bets Kapor is wrong. 379 people (55%) at this time side with his 'belief', that a machine will accomplish the Turing test by 2029. At this time, 10% more people side with Kurzweil the challenger of the bet. This is subject to change over time due to daily bets. (Gambling).

4. Within the general parameters of this 'bet', a key elemental word is used: 'IF'. Such as: "If Kapor wins" or "If Kurzweil wins", and this places the entire episode in the jurisdiction of 'hearsay' type testimony at best. Therefore not valid.

5. The CERN LHC GRID is not even specified in the Long Bets wager-contract stipulations, and the outside variables for the chance of either of them being wrong (or right) are astronomical, in this case.

6. This bet is not sanctioned or even affiliated with any scientific community, or any other community, except that of Long Bets.

7. This is just a bet, and nothing more; although a $20,000 dollar bet granted. This is only considered a substantial bet, because of the large wager stakes involved.

8. The Century 25 premise is completely invalid, no matter how interesting or alluring it may be.

9. I actually am tempted to register with Long Bets, and vote for fun!

CERN LHC and The GRID represents an extremely important scientific experiment, that should not be left in the hands of mere gamblers!

[Robert Marsh II]

October 16th 2008: Debate Causes and Repairs.

CERN press release office made public today, the LHC malfunction incident analysis report, located at the following Url:

CERN Press Release

[Robert Marsh II]

October 21, 2008

Here is the main LHC 2008 news index portal, and this should assist with debate information!

The main index is broken into two categories:

1. Press Releases
2. Articles

https://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/LHC2008/news/news.html

[minorwork]

A resistive zone developed eh? I've seen that stuff before. Guys bolting the connections together forget to tighten one or a little grease gets in between the components being made up, maybe even nothing more than skin oil. In any case a bad connection will go to arc mode, if in a small area, in nothing flat. 9,000 amp at 1 volt is what it looked like to me was being dropped at the bad connection. Volts times amps equals watts. So 9kw was unleashed, albeit, only for a little while and in a very small area, but enough so that once the connection was an arc, that the voltage driving the magnets at a higher voltage level, I did not see how much, really did the melting and boiling the helium into a pressurized bomb that the existing reliefs were sized too small to prevent a rupture of the helium container, blowing it off its mounts and blowing soot (what we called a carbon path) down the length of the beam shaft. It could have been worse if the breaker or contacts had not operated as quickly as they did.

I presuppose that the currents are DC. When the magnetic field drops because current is stopped a reverse current is induced that would have fed the arc but for the common safety feature of giving the induced electric charge some place to go, namely the resistor banks that are provided for a normal shutdown.

Still, at the coal mine, I've seen a 2 second of a 3 phase short at an AC plug spit out a huge and growing red-green plasma from around the 13,800 volt plug until a distant breaker kicked. I had thought I was a safe distance when the power was reset, but at about half a second into the event, me and my buddy's feets was moving before we could turn around to run. WOW. 2 shifts go by and we hook up the new cable after the other shifts had repaired the receptacle of the switch house box. This time we stood double the distance away. No long arc this time. The breaker had been adjusted. This time it blew the plug off the receptacle and across the track and onto the belt, about 15 feet, with a report that made my ears ring.

All this started when the Federal MSHA inspector, we called them the FBI, said the ribs along the track were loose and had to be pulled. The rib is the wall. The boss didn't like how his men were doing it and he proceeded to show them how. The entry had a 42 inch wide belt, a row of props, then the track. Above the rib side of the track was the trolley wire that was the positive feed of 300 volts DC with the track being the negative. between the trolley and the rib was the 13,800 volt power cable, Three shielded 4/0 wires were carried the 3 phase current and with them was two #2 uninsulated ground wires and finally a #6 insulated ground check wire. Well, the boss proceeded to show the men how to pull a rib. He grabbed a two pointed miner's pick and with the famous last words heard so many times before a major screw up, "Watch this! This is how you pull a rib," he reared back with the pick and speared the 13,800 volt cable behind him. This shut down the north end of the mine trolley and all. The men in the coal units were mad as they now had to walk out about 2 miles to where there was power. There wasn't much good come of it. The boss got a new name. Watch this, was his name from then on.

I've seen the result of bad connections for 31 years. It was job security. Even normal operation gave heat cycling effects that would loosen connections. The fault at CERN could have even been not an inadequate tightening but an over torquing that caused the bolt to break, or a washer to break when heating in the test a little the expansion broke thus loosening the connection. I doubt that they will ever know. The material was melted and went into the plasma phase of matter.

[Nono]

Has anyone noticed that as soon as they turned the thing on, we were sucked into a world-financial blackhole?

[Robert Marsh II]

minorwork: Okay, so there is a hole in the bucket, let's patch the damn hole and get on with it! Lastest press release shows LHC on track for Spring 2009 re-start.

=================================

Nono: Yeah, I have seen the evidence, and have named the creation of the event-horizon:

"THE GREAT GLOBAL DEPRESSION"

>Right now, the black hole is just sucking loose matter:

"ROAD TO GLOBAL HYPER-INFLATION"

>The singularity has been named:

"THE DERIVATIVES MARKET GLOBALIZATION TIME-BOMB"

=================================

>Particle Physics Updates In The News: October 19-25 2008:
19-25 October 2008

[Robert Marsh II]

October 30, 2008

> Just because the Large Hadron Collider is out of working order through the scheduled winter shut-down, does not mean all the engineers and scientists just quit by going home -- they are still at work behind the scenes! Restart: May-June 2009.

Atom smashers at work - Cosmic Log - msnbc.com

================================

Bonus Round:
Sci Tech News From India: Repair plan for 'Atom Smasher' being finalized

Repair plan for ‘Atom Smasher’ being finalized | Top News

[minorwork]

Yeah, who needs CERN? Fermilab might be getting somewhere. Fermilab 'ghosts' hint at new particles - physicsworld.com Might have to register to read, hard to tell since I'm registered. Registration is free or I wouldn't be.

A lot of people pulled their names from the paper. Oh well, maybe the ghost particles at Halloween time was responsible.

[Robert Marsh II]

November 11th 2008

Minorwork Quote: "Yeah, who needs CERN?

Answer: CERN needs CERN! Do you think for one instant that they would just walk away from a 6-8 billion dollar investment, admit decades of planning led to a complete failure; especially since they have not even had a chance to engage in real collisions, as yet???

CERN is only sweating a little, because Fermilab has 'no' absolute Ghost Particle proofs so far, just hints of ethereal evidence!

Admit a stolen victory by their competitive rival Fermilab, without a fight, I definitely think not!

CERN will find a way to stay in the cutting-edge ballgame, not just because of the monetary investment, but due to the human lifetime investment by the CERN community itself.

They would rather reconstruct their entire project design, instead of losing the worldwide limelight, with research funding included!

No, CERN in the long-run will make sure CERN is needed by the world, it must not fail at it's chance at greatness!?

I can almost hear a CERN technician right now, declaring Fermilab doesn't have a 'ghost' of a chance!

[minorwork]

Being from Illinois, I had kinda hoped that the Standard Model's decline or the Higgs boson be found there. I was just joking about not needing CERN. Any signal should come thru much better in the CERN data.

The science really consists of just collecting data and seeing what the heck the computers and pattern searchers can make of it. This is a bit different from the science that postulates a hypothesis that by a well designed experiment, can be disproved.

[Piscean]

Upto now, a portion of the 'Standard Model' has been nothing more than a theoretical-mathematic representation (intelligent guessing),

No come on the scientist wannabee's on here tell me all the time how the workings of the universe are already understood and I should just accept that. How can this be lol!!!

[minorwork]

Quote by: Piscean No come on the scientist wannabee's on here tell me all the time how the workings of the universe are already understood and I should just accept that. How can this be lol!!!

You won't hear that crap from me. They might be deluded into thinking that the complex math descriptions are the world, but I think that such is just a model that we use to predict and attempt control to lessen pain, suffering, and early death.

Consider the point. In the real physical world, it has no dimensions. In the abstract world of mathematics it is a line looked at down its axis. The real world is always at least one dimension removed from the modeled world.

I don't know all the workings of the universe but I think I'm safe when I say it's not a good idea to eat the yellow snow.

[Robert Marsh II]

November 12th 2008

Re: CERN LHC and the development of the 'Standard Model'.

Any serious research will reveal that the 'Standard Model' has grey-areas with missing sectors of connectivity, which have been filled in by theoretical-mathematic extrapolations (intelligent guessing)!

Human perception is the largest grey-area there is, because just as in 'Plato's Cave', we are on the inside looking out, and our perceptions are being tainted by sensory judgements, that have been known to be wrong from time to time.

The entire concept-design of particle collisions, is to create energies powerful enough to cause the highest destructive force possible, sift through the aftermath debris, and find out what is truly there; not just what our sensory perception alludes us toward.

'There is more here than meets the eye!"

Remember: CERN LHC has been designed and built upon these theoretical-mathematic extrapolations, and herein, is where any real danger truly lies!

[Piscean]

Quote: Quote by: Piscean No come on the scientist wannabee's on here tell me all the time how the workings of the universe are already understood and I should just accept that. How can this be lol!!! You won't hear that crap from me. They might be deluded into thinking that the complex math descriptions are the world, but I think that such is just a model that we use to predict and attempt control to lessen pain, suffering, and early death. Consider the point. In the real physical world, it has no dimensions. In the abstract world of mathematics it is a line looked at down its axis. The real world is always at least one dimension removed from the modeled world. I don't know all the workings of the universe but I think I'm safe when I say it's not a good idea to eat the yellow snow.

Right on bro :-)

[Robert Marsh II]

November 16th 2008

It is an obvious majority-rule win, in favor of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) experimentation to proceed, at it's scheduled Spring 2009 re-start period!

This poll closed on October 17, 2008, and it further reflects the human curiosity drive to know the truth!

If the CERN LHC designers and technicians knew for a fact, that the 'Standard Model' was complete and accurate in every detail, then these experiments would only be confirmations, and nothing more!

Since they have already admitted they do not know everything, and that's the reason for these tests, then it becomes a blatant deduction, that the 'Standard Model' is in question!!!

Therefore, there are multiple missing grey-areas of critical informational data, that need to become known!

* Note: The paradox which myself and others have tried to project is:

If the CERN LHC is designed and based built upon the current interpretations of the 'Standard Model' in question, then whose to say there are no inherent design flaws within the LHC right now???

Therefore, any discoveries during the combined 14Tev (trillion electron volts) high-energy particle collisions, could become more violent in nature, than is currently being predicted.

This should not become a critical issue, until the LHC switches to the scheduled heavy Lead(Pb) ion collision experiments, later in it's projected program!

I repeat from previous posts: The Lead(Pb) ion experiments are known to create hyper-density plasmatic (plasma) fields, and any inherent flaws in 'Standard Model' design would surface at that time.

[Robert Marsh II]

November 16th 2008

At the following url is a direct representation of the ALICE experiment, which I have referenced in many CERN LHC post comments, and is also referenced within the main body debate statement: comment #1, as well.

ALICE - A Large Ion Collider Experiment | Swedish Research

[minorwork]

The only way I have been able to invoke the fear you have of the unknown CERN experiments is by imagining the possible repercussions of that stupid gold disc on Voyager and other such attempts at alien communication. Sure it's too late to stop our electromagnetic waves propagation, but the thinking astounds me that we would intentional go in blind by sending instructions of how to get here. Lunch is served for the aliens and we might be the lunch.

[Robert Marsh II]

November 16th 2008

Response to: Minorwork;

Who do you think is actually conducting these 'mad' CERN LHC experiments, because the human race has been listed: 'a la carte'???

*************** Just Kidding! ****************

It is not 'fear', but rather the inner-instinctual knowledge through deductive reasoning, that we have become independently aware of the fact:

All Common-Sense Has Been Abandoned!!!

=============================

Encore Presentation:
ALICE - A Large Ion Collider Experiment | Swedish Research