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darwinist · Nov 12, 2003, 04:31 pm

This should get a few rants going.

What is better, Linux or Windows ?

<Evil Grin>

RebelWithanAK · Nov 12, 2003, 05:02 pm

Linux, but Windows is more accessible.

Veonik · Nov 12, 2003, 06:10 pm

Pretty much what Rebel said, but Linux is becoming very much more accessible than it used to be.

fedfem · Nov 12, 2003, 06:10 pm

Linux is better but Windows is prettier.

Geoff332 · Nov 12, 2003, 06:12 pm

It depends what you mean by 'better', doesn't it?

From an internal technical point of view, Linux is vastly superior (it's basic architecture is streamlined and simple -- which makes it stable, efficient and secure). From an external point of view, Linux is still not as good as Windows. By this I mean it lacks the range of hardware support that you have in Windows (little things like WinModems and USB although I think USB is much better now). From a desk-top user's point of view, Windows wins, largely on the basis of familiarity and ease of use rather than actually being a superior product. From a business point of view, I'm afraid it's still no contest: Windows wins hands down. At present, I would only advise businesses to use Linux for backroom operations (various types of servers, including gateway servers; animation rendering farms and other high end processing -- of course, a lot of this is running on things like Solaris Unix and Linux doesn't have any real technical advantages there). Windows still dominates the desktops in almost all companies. The only exceptions to this rule are if you have:
1. Highly technically literate users (which is almost never the case across the board).
2. A significant internal support and development staff.

For a home user, I would always recommend Windows. If you're competent enough to make Linux work, then you'll already know enough to ignore my recommendation and make your own decision.

This could all change if people like IBM can make Linux work as a desktop environment. Linux is making major progress and improving in huge leaps -- and IBM's involvement is a huge boost for them (incidentally, IBM have been searching for a single kernal that they can use across all of their systems from PCs to their AS400 systems: Linux seems to be able to do that for them). But, unfortunately for Linux, Windows is also improving (dumping the 9x kernal for the NT kernal was a very good, and long over-due decision). Linux is already strong in the server market; I would like to see a more competitive desk-top market, but we're a long way from there now.

fedfem · Nov 12, 2003, 06:15 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Linux, but Windows is more accessible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Linux is very accessible and free.

http://www.suse.com/us/private/download/

There are versions of distributions(Redhat, Mandrake) for those who like simplicity of windows.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 12, 2003, 07:11 pm

By accessible I mean that windows is easier to use by the computer illiterate. Not to mention that even installing Linux involves more skill than the average name-brand production PC user has.

Anarchist Patriot · Nov 12, 2003, 10:25 pm

I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux?

I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.

fedfem · Nov 13, 2003, 01:14 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anarchist Patriot,)
I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux?

I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Tons. There is kword which is similar to Word, Ksirc as a chat client, Kaim for instant messaging, Graphic programs, I can do just about everything on Linux that I can do on windows. Several browsers are available. A basic e machine can have dual boot with xp and linux with minimal set up. Best to start with a clean formatted machine--it gets complicated trying to install linux on a windows machine.

What applications in particular are you interested in. The biggest prob I have had is sound drivers. I used to use Mandrake and now use Redhat. The distribution comes with thousands of applications. Any I don't have can usually be found and downloaded. I am running both linux and windows on this pc. The install of Linux was just as easy as XP--only longer. We also run Solaris.

Geoff332 · Nov 13, 2003, 07:43 am

Linux has a bunch of great applications. The problem (and strength) is the lack of uniformity. You have several office suites -- koffice, star office and a few others. You have GIMP which is not far off photoshop in it's abilities. You have several good databases for desktop PCs (the DBM systems aren't quite as slick looking as Access, but they are generally considerably more powerful, stable and efficient). Gaming is a lot more limited than a PC (although apparently there are some great titles out there).

The two biggest gaps are a server integrated mail/calander system and ERP/CRM systems. These exist, but I've not seen anything to match Lotus Notes or Oracle/SAP. There are rumours of a quite nice system being developed. If it comes through, it will be quite revolutionary.

The problem is using them is not identical to using windows applications. It's similar and, in many cases, once you get used to them, the Linux toys are far better. But familiarity is a very, very powerful marketing tool (I would go so far as to argue that it is the most powerful -- particularly dealing with complex products).

darwinist · Nov 13, 2003, 08:35 am

Having growen up, before the onslaught of Windows. I feel that windows is a little more easy. Manly to do with the fact. That it is preinstalled on most computers.

However once you get into the Linux grove. Your thinking starts to change. Building a network is far easy in Linux, than in Windows.

I think the main downfall of Linux is, that you have a different learning curve.

What i mean is, if you wish to install a game on windows. You slot in the cd, allocate space. Then most of the time. If you system is setup. You can play a game.

With linux it works a litlle differently. I have just started, got used to using aptitude. Now have to fingue out how to get these downloads working from the internet. Then my sound card, etc.

I think the linux community should make a standard disc set. So if you had no computer with an OS. You could insert a floppy. To get a basic shell and cd drive working. Insert the cd, which would give up basic desktop. A easy download OS sites, one click and you have it. No learning, no reading, just there. I know this is a bit of a pipe dream.

A work online turtorials, if you wish to do this. Click this, this and that. If that does not work try this. etc

Impenitent · Nov 13, 2003, 09:02 am

I still like DOS

Waychel · Nov 22, 2003, 06:07 pm

I don't think that there is any argument over the fact that Linux is more secure and stable than Windows. That is all that should matter when it comes to summing up the quality of an OS.

However, I have to admit that most of us are left with no alternative to Windows when we use our computers for business. I used to run Slackware 7 before I started taking my work home with me, and now as a result Windows is all I run anymore. I hate Windows, but I can't risk fault Windows emulators and 90% of what I use is Windows exclusive (not even for Mac).

So Linux may be better, but it is not a viable alternative for most people. Although, IMO: OpenBSD > Linux.

darwinist · Nov 23, 2003, 08:04 am

I believe that Linux will meet some of your busniess needs. It depends on what you need. There are now over 10,000 packages on one site alone.

If like me, your programming skills are not great. It is still possible to get a project off the ground. I found a project, that i would like to do. But i do not have the skills yet, to do. So i signed up on the development team. I am doing some translating work for them.

Which will help the project grow, which will, hopefully, help towards it's completion.

The only problem is what to do in the here and now. So i have a duel boot system.

Waychel · Nov 23, 2003, 01:49 pm

The reason I can't use Linux is because many of the programs I use are Windows exclusive. I use programs for generating trusts, deeds, wills and all kinds of other stuff which can only run on Windows. =\ So its not a matter of just needing Word or something like that.

darwinist · Nov 24, 2003, 06:39 pm

That is all specialist stuff. The project now going on, are what the programmers need or want to do. But i check out the packages. See what is available. Just for the fun of it.

Could save you thousands of dollors.

Nexa · Dec 3, 2003, 08:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
The reason I can't use Linux is because many of the programs I use are Windows exclusive. I use programs for generating trusts, deeds, wills and all kinds of other stuff which can only run on Windows. =\ So its not a matter of just needing Word or something like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

A lot of Windows applications can be run under WINE (http://www.winehq.com), which is completely free, such as many other Linux applications.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anarchist Patriot,)
I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux?

I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh yes, just check out http://freshmeat.net and http://sourceforge.net . You can practically find anything in substitute to costly windows progs and even more. ;)

And to the topic question -
I personally think Linux is much better, I have had my computer running (with Apache web server) over a month now (just restarting to load new kernels). When I used to run Windows, I was lucky to have the computer on for a day without restarting (famous Blue Screen of Death).
But, for inexperienced users who hardly know how to use computers I recommend Windows, which is buggy and full of holes, because that's just point and click. But there are also pre-installed programs with Linux, so if such a user gets a computer with a distribution of Linux pre-installed, I bet he/she would just think it's Windows Longhorn ;) (and in reply to a previous post I think Linux is more pretty :P) Or, they can use Lindows or any Linux distribution with Ximian Desktop Enviroment.
For gamers it's still better to use Windows, but only because the games are made for Windows and not because they can't make any for Linux. There are quite a few games out for Linux also (Quake, Sims). I have tried out Starcraft Broodwar out with WINE and it worked fine ;). By the way, there's also a WineX which is especially for gamers, but it costs money.

darwinist · Dec 7, 2003, 09:27 am

Thanks Nexa, that was the infomation i was looking for. I am new to linux and it is cool.

Nexa · Dec 7, 2003, 10:39 am

No problem, glad to help out. :)

The Devil · Dec 11, 2003, 06:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,)
Linux is better but Windows is prettier.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Sorry, but that's the most ignorant thing I think I've ever heard.

EDIT: Oh, I'm sorry again. I read the rest of the posts in this topic, and found out you're using KDE. I guess that's why you think that way.

Nov 12, 2003, 04:31 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	This should get a few rants going. What is better, Linux or Windows ? <Evil Grin> What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Nov 12, 2003, 05:02 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Linux, but Windows is more accessible. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 12, 2003, 06:15 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Linux, but Windows is more accessible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Linux is very accessible and free. http://www.suse.com/us/private/download/ There are versions of distributions(Redhat, Mandrake) for those who like simplicity of windows.

Nov 12, 2003, 07:11 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	By accessible I mean that windows is easier to use by the computer illiterate. Not to mention that even installing Linux involves more skill than the average name-brand production PC user has. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 13, 2003, 01:14 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anarchist Patriot,) I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux? I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Tons. There is kword which is similar to Word, Ksirc as a chat client, Kaim for instant messaging, Graphic programs, I can do just about everything on Linux that I can do on windows. Several browsers are available. A basic e machine can have dual boot with xp and linux with minimal set up. Best to start with a clean formatted machine--it gets complicated trying to install linux on a windows machine. What applications in particular are you interested in. The biggest prob I have had is sound drivers. I used to use Mandrake and now use Redhat. The distribution comes with thousands of applications. Any I don't have can usually be found and downloaded. I am running both linux and windows on this pc. The install of Linux was just as easy as XP--only longer. We also run Solaris.

Nov 12, 2003, 06:10 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Veonik Sedimentary Rock Location: Utah Posts: 5	Pretty much what Rebel said, but Linux is becoming very much more accessible than it used to be.

Nov 12, 2003, 06:10 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	Linux is better but Windows is prettier.

Nov 12, 2003, 06:12 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	It depends what you mean by 'better', doesn't it? From an internal technical point of view, Linux is vastly superior (it's basic architecture is streamlined and simple -- which makes it stable, efficient and secure). From an external point of view, Linux is still not as good as Windows. By this I mean it lacks the range of hardware support that you have in Windows (little things like WinModems and USB although I think USB is much better now). From a desk-top user's point of view, Windows wins, largely on the basis of familiarity and ease of use rather than actually being a superior product. From a business point of view, I'm afraid it's still no contest: Windows wins hands down. At present, I would only advise businesses to use Linux for backroom operations (various types of servers, including gateway servers; animation rendering farms and other high end processing -- of course, a lot of this is running on things like Solaris Unix and Linux doesn't have any real technical advantages there). Windows still dominates the desktops in almost all companies. The only exceptions to this rule are if you have: 1. Highly technically literate users (which is almost never the case across the board). 2. A significant internal support and development staff. For a home user, I would always recommend Windows. If you're competent enough to make Linux work, then you'll already know enough to ignore my recommendation and make your own decision. This could all change if people like IBM can make Linux work as a desktop environment. Linux is making major progress and improving in huge leaps -- and IBM's involvement is a huge boost for them (incidentally, IBM have been searching for a single kernal that they can use across all of their systems from PCs to their AS400 systems: Linux seems to be able to do that for them). But, unfortunately for Linux, Windows is also improving (dumping the 9x kernal for the NT kernal was a very good, and long over-due decision). Linux is already strong in the server market; I would like to see a more competitive desk-top market, but we're a long way from there now.

Nov 12, 2003, 10:25 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Patriot Molten Ash Posts: 143	I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux? I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.

Nov 13, 2003, 07:43 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	Linux has a bunch of great applications. The problem (and strength) is the lack of uniformity. You have several office suites -- koffice, star office and a few others. You have GIMP which is not far off photoshop in it's abilities. You have several good databases for desktop PCs (the DBM systems aren't quite as slick looking as Access, but they are generally considerably more powerful, stable and efficient). Gaming is a lot more limited than a PC (although apparently there are some great titles out there). The two biggest gaps are a server integrated mail/calander system and ERP/CRM systems. These exist, but I've not seen anything to match Lotus Notes or Oracle/SAP. There are rumours of a quite nice system being developed. If it comes through, it will be quite revolutionary. The problem is using them is not identical to using windows applications. It's similar and, in many cases, once you get used to them, the Linux toys are far better. But familiarity is a very, very powerful marketing tool (I would go so far as to argue that it is the most powerful -- particularly dealing with complex products).

Nov 13, 2003, 08:35 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Having growen up, before the onslaught of Windows. I feel that windows is a little more easy. Manly to do with the fact. That it is preinstalled on most computers. However once you get into the Linux grove. Your thinking starts to change. Building a network is far easy in Linux, than in Windows. I think the main downfall of Linux is, that you have a different learning curve. What i mean is, if you wish to install a game on windows. You slot in the cd, allocate space. Then most of the time. If you system is setup. You can play a game. With linux it works a litlle differently. I have just started, got used to using aptitude. Now have to fingue out how to get these downloads working from the internet. Then my sound card, etc. I think the linux community should make a standard disc set. So if you had no computer with an OS. You could insert a floppy. To get a basic shell and cd drive working. Insert the cd, which would give up basic desktop. A easy download OS sites, one click and you have it. No learning, no reading, just there. I know this is a bit of a pipe dream. A work online turtorials, if you wish to do this. Click this, this and that. If that does not work try this. etc What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Nov 13, 2003, 09:02 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	I still like DOS "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 22, 2003, 06:07 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I don't think that there is any argument over the fact that Linux is more secure and stable than Windows. That is all that should matter when it comes to summing up the quality of an OS. However, I have to admit that most of us are left with no alternative to Windows when we use our computers for business. I used to run Slackware 7 before I started taking my work home with me, and now as a result Windows is all I run anymore. I hate Windows, but I can't risk fault Windows emulators and 90% of what I use is Windows exclusive (not even for Mac). So Linux may be better, but it is not a viable alternative for most people. Although, IMO: OpenBSD > Linux. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Nov 23, 2003, 08:04 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	I believe that Linux will meet some of your busniess needs. It depends on what you need. There are now over 10,000 packages on one site alone. If like me, your programming skills are not great. It is still possible to get a project off the ground. I found a project, that i would like to do. But i do not have the skills yet, to do. So i signed up on the development team. I am doing some translating work for them. Which will help the project grow, which will, hopefully, help towards it's completion. The only problem is what to do in the here and now. So i have a duel boot system. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Nov 23, 2003, 01:49 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	The reason I can't use Linux is because many of the programs I use are Windows exclusive. I use programs for generating trusts, deeds, wills and all kinds of other stuff which can only run on Windows. =\ So its not a matter of just needing Word or something like that. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Nov 24, 2003, 06:39 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	That is all specialist stuff. The project now going on, are what the programmers need or want to do. But i check out the packages. See what is available. Just for the fun of it. Could save you thousands of dollors. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 3, 2003, 08:36 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Nexa Sedimentary Rock Location: New York, USA Posts: 11	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) The reason I can't use Linux is because many of the programs I use are Windows exclusive. I use programs for generating trusts, deeds, wills and all kinds of other stuff which can only run on Windows. =\ So its not a matter of just needing Word or something like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> A lot of Windows applications can be run under WINE (http://www.winehq.com), which is completely free, such as many other Linux applications. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anarchist Patriot,) I would ask, can you find many applications that run on Linux? I personally would love to learn to use Linux for no other reason except that it will be my way of raising my middle finger at Microsoft and Bill Gates.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh yes, just check out http://freshmeat.net and http://sourceforge.net . You can practically find anything in substitute to costly windows progs and even more. ;) And to the topic question - I personally think Linux is much better, I have had my computer running (with Apache web server) over a month now (just restarting to load new kernels). When I used to run Windows, I was lucky to have the computer on for a day without restarting (famous Blue Screen of Death). But, for inexperienced users who hardly know how to use computers I recommend Windows, which is buggy and full of holes, because that's just point and click. But there are also pre-installed programs with Linux, so if such a user gets a computer with a distribution of Linux pre-installed, I bet he/she would just think it's Windows Longhorn ;) (and in reply to a previous post I think Linux is more pretty :P) Or, they can use Lindows or any Linux distribution with Ximian Desktop Enviroment. For gamers it's still better to use Windows, but only because the games are made for Windows and not because they can't make any for Linux. There are quite a few games out for Linux also (Quake, Sims). I have tried out Starcraft Broodwar out with WINE and it worked fine ;). By the way, there's also a WineX which is especially for gamers, but it costs money.

Dec 7, 2003, 09:27 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Thanks Nexa, that was the infomation i was looking for. I am new to linux and it is cool. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 7, 2003, 10:39 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Nexa Sedimentary Rock Location: New York, USA Posts: 11	No problem, glad to help out. :)

Dec 11, 2003, 06:29 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,) Linux is better but Windows is prettier.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sorry, but that's the most ignorant thing I think I've ever heard. EDIT: Oh, I'm sorry again. I read the rest of the posts in this topic, and found out you're using KDE. I guess that's why you think that way.