Global Warming a hoax? Listen to NASA!!!

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: rez One must first provide a better explanation to be able to be skeptical towards the explanation in question. Simply put, if the explanation sucks, then a better explanation must be provided.!

OK, name me one, one scientist who believes that they have a grasp on how much, and what kind of gases are escaping the sea bed every day?


Without knowldge like that, one can't accurately deduce what man is contributing, or affix blame in my opinion.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Whatssnew Hope everyone enjoy's this. Also if our weather forcasters can't even predict more than a week out how can you rely on predictions for 10, 20, 50, years into the future? God Bless!!! P.S. Can't fit whole document in, so go to web sight to see the graphs and the rest: Earth's Fidgeting Climate

Weather and Climate are related but not the same. "Our "weather" is a day to day subject. Our "climate" is based upon long term data.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Milton Bradley OK, name me one, one scientist who believes that they have a grasp on how much, and what kind of gases are escaping the sea bed every day? Without knowldge like that, one can't accurately deduce what man is contributing, or affix blame in my opinion.

Nobody?


All you Global Warming people out there, and not one name?


This is why I say your all buying into this too far, too fast.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Once again, someone mixing religion with science and wondering why they are confused. LOL

That the planet's overall temperature has risen about a degree or so over the last century is measurable and, so, there's no doubt that this has happened. The issue, though, is whether the rise in temperature was caused by evil humans with their automobiles and manufacturing plants, has other causes, or whether it's just part of a cycle that has been going on throughout the planet's history? It has nothing to do with religion.

Liar Algores documentary and movies like Day After Tomorrow and Category 6 (with its sequel Category 7) are nothing more than hyperbole designed to cause a panic and manipulate governments and individuals into behaving the way environmentalists and other leftists want them to. They're all part of an ongoing affront to liberty.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: thx1138 Sounds like your tying Global Warming only to the rise of carbon dioxide gas, well does it matter if it's carbon dioxide gas or the fact that the Sun is releasing more energy? The fact is the ice caps are melting. Just because it can't be completely proved to be casued by CO2 doesn't mean it's a hoax. Of course Jesus will come back and save all the ones...

The ice caps have been melting back for about 14,000 years now. When the melting started, they extended over most of the northern and southern hemispheres. SInce they began melting, sea level has risen over 400 feet. Tell me, exactly what is surprising about the fact that they continue to melt?

[xyzer]

Hey Pale Rider..How come you dare to bring reality back into the mix?

The ice caps have been melting back for about 14,000 years now. When the melting started, they extended over most of the northern and southern hemispheres. SInce they began melting, sea level has risen over 400 feet. Tell me, exactly what is surprising about the fact that they continue to melt?

Al Gore ignored that one?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: xyzer Hey Pale Rider..How come you dare to bring reality back into the mix?

It not only amazes me slightly that the proponents of anthropogenic global warming fail to mention that the earth is still in the process of exiting the ice age, but also that those who don't believe that we are causing the doom of the earth fail to ask them why they don't mention it.

[Osborn F Enready]

For the record, I don't stand on either side of the fence here until all the facts are in.

I don't see anything wrong with attempting to protect the enviroment without using government force, nor do I see a problem with customers holding service and product providers more accountable for their pollution through support, or non-support of their product.

I do not believe or disbelieve in global warming, but I believe in science. Over time, science will show the facts, and when the facts are clear, I will take my stand squarely on the side of science.

I believe all people should have a vested intrest in protecting the enviroment, and I believe if more people had more control over their own land, they would. I don't believe in using government force as a cudgel against innocent citizens and businesses, regardless of what the global, national or state majority says.

[EnragedParrot]

Quote by: Pale RIder It not only amazes me slightly that the proponents of anthropogenic global warming fail to mention that the earth is still in the process of exiting the ice age, but also that those who don't believe that we are causing the doom of the earth fail to ask them why they don't mention it.

What exactly do you think it means to say that Earth is exiting an ice age?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: EnragedParrot What exactly do you think it means to say that Earth is exiting an ice age?

I mean to say that the exit from the present ice age began some 14,000 years ago and will not be finished until the ice is gone. For most of the earth's history, there has been no ice at all at one or both of the poles. On earth, ice is the anomoly, not the norm. Each past ice age has ended with the earth having a mean temperature that was too warm to support ice at at least one, but ususally both of the poles. That being the case, I don't find it surprising that the very same thing is happening yet again.

[EnragedParrot]

That isn't what I'm asking. You're saying that global warming is occurring because we are exiting an ice age. I want to know what exactly you think, "exiting an ice age" means.

Would you also say that temperatures go up in the Spring and Summer because we're, "exiting Winter?"

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Pale RIder It not only amazes me slightly that the proponents of anthropogenic global warming fail to mention that the earth is still in the process of exiting the ice age, but also that those who don't believe that we are causing the doom of the earth fail to ask them why they don't mention it.

Not only that, but what would they predict the natural state of a system trying to reach equilibrium be?


Obviously, the answer would be that it will oscillate around that happy medium.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: EnragedParrot That isn't what I'm asking. You're saying that global warming is occurring because we are exiting an ice age. I want to know what exactly you think, "exiting an ice age" means.

I am saying that we are exiting an ice age because we are still in an ice age. An ice age is characterized by a period in which the average mean temperature of the earth is cooler than the norm and ice caps form at the poles and expand towards the equator. In the time just before an ice age begins, there is no ice at one, or both of the poles. As the earth enters the ice age, ice caps form at the poles and as the ice age deepens, the ice caps expand southward, and northward respectively. How far they expand north and south is dependent upon the depth of the ice age.

As the earth exits an ice age, the ice caps receede northward and southward. The exit from an ice age, as with any natural cycle, is not a smooth line. There are periods when the ice melts back, and periods when some ground (ice) is gained back. The overall trend, however, is for the earth to warm, and the ice to melt until there is no ice to be found at one, or both of the poles.

Maybe you were under the impression that the earth enters an ice age overnight and suddenly, glaciers extend over much of the northern and southern hemispheres and it ends at some specific time with residual ice remaining at the poles. Here is a simple (but accurate) chart that shows the temperature cycles of the earth for the past 600 million years or so. Clearly, the earth is in a cool period, and clearly, ice still exists over vast areas of the earth. Therefore, we are still in an ice age. Exiting it, but still in it. As you can see, when the earth reaches its norm, it will be too warm to support any appreciable amount of ice, anywhere.

Quote by: EnragedParrot Would you also say that temperatures go up in the Spring and Summer because we're, "exiting Winter?"

Have you ever noticed that when we exit winter, the temperatures warm up for a while, then fall, then warm, then fall. Ice melts, then perhaps it snows some more, but the warming trend continues until winter is over. The exit from an ice age follows the same pattern. The overall temperature trend is up until it gets warm. The end of winter doesn't happen on a particular date as suggested by the calender. That is nothing more than our own invention. The end of winter happens when there is no more winter weather, and the ice age ends, when no appreciable amount of ice remains, ANYWHERE.

If we were beings that lived for ages, we would be looking out our windows, after a particularly long winter (ice age) looking forward to the summer to come.

[Winter wind]

Wait wait. I'm no expert at this, but weren't the last ice ages, well, frosty? Last one had a glacier drive through America. This ice ages seems rather tame in comparison. And the other part that is alarming is the relative speed which the earth is warming right? Again i haven't done a ton of research, but the earth is warming at a speed beyond usual, right?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Winter wind Wait wait. I'm no expert at this, but weren't the last ice ages, well, frosty? Last one had a glacier drive through America.

Are you under the impression that the glaciers covered most of N. America over night somewhere back in the tertiary period? It took quite some time for them to cover most of the northern hemisphere and it is taking quite some time for them to melt back. So far, it has taken about 14,000 years and the estimates are that it is going to be some time yet before it all melts.

The chart that I provided is accurate. Clearly, some ice ages are colder than others and as you can see, when the present ice age began in the ladder half of the tertiary period, it didn't become "frosty" overnight. It was a long decent from the balmy 71degree F mean temperature to the icy 53 degree mean which represents the coolest part of the present ice age. The present average temperature of somewhere in the 58 degree range is hardly a giant leap out of the present ice age. You can clearly see that the rise out of this ice age is taking longer than previous ice ages.

Quote by: Winter wind This ice ages seems rather tame in comparison.

Does it? If you look at the chart, the ice age we are in seems to be lasting longer than previous ice ages. We are on the warming side now. Too bad you can't ask your ancestors of about 20,000 years ago their opinion of how "tame" the present ice age is. I am sure that from their perspective, there was nothing tame about it. You seem to be under the impression that the ice age we are presently in the process of exiting is a different ice age than the one that began in the ladder tertiary period and reached its coldest point in the pleistocene period. It isn't. If you look at the chart that I provided, you will see that it was warm then it began to cool, then it got real cold, and now it has begun to warm again. It is still relatively cold, but it is warming.

We should expet that exiting an ice age would be much like exiting winter. Warmer then colder. Melting snow, then some more snow, then warmer, then colder. But always an overall warming trend and as is the case with exiting winter, the further we move along the overall warming trend, the faster we should expect the temperature to rise. Once again, refer to the chart I provided. Does it not show exactly that?

Quote by: Winter wind And the other part that is alarming is the relative speed which the earth is warming right? Again i haven't done a ton of research, but the earth is warming at a speed beyond usual, right?

Relative to what? Your life time? The life time of a tree? The life time of a mountain? Again, refer to the chart. If anything, it is taking much longer to get out of this ice age than it took to get out of previous ones.

If you want to make a logical argument, that is supported by the evidence, argue that somehow human beings are keeping the earth un-naturally cold. At least you could point to the historical record as an inarguable example.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Pale RIder Are you under the impression that the glaciers covered most of N. America over night somewhere back in the tertiary period? It took quite some time for them to cover most of the northern hemisphere and it is taking quite some time for them to melt back. So far, it has taken about 14,000 years and the estimates are that it is going to be some time yet before it all melts.

That it took "quite some time" is just one opinion. I'm sure there was some scientific basis for the view presented in the movie Day After Tomorrow that the event happened quite quickly, though most of the "science" in the movie was fiction. For more information: <i>Day After Tomorrow</i> Movie: Could Ice Age Occur Overnight? and The Day After Tomorrow : Weather Underground

[EnragedParrot]

Pale Rider, your graph shows only changes on geologic timescales. Fluctuations in the greenhouse effect have very little effect on changes over such long time periods. The changes you're showing are believed to be most strongly influenced by the position of land masses across Earth's surface. Lack of land mass at the poles prevents the formation of large ice sheets, for example.

Note that the most recent large scale warming showed on your graph occurs at a rate of about six degrees centigrade over a period of about 30 million years (this is a very rough estimate). The current warming is occurring at a rate of about .7 degree per century. This would amount to a 210,000 degree increase over a thirty million year period (which is about 38 times hotter than the surface of the sun). Obviously the current warming is much different from the changes visible on your graph.

Your graph has too low a resolution to show any changes relevant to the human race. The changes we're interested into occur over periods of thousands, even hundreds, of years. For our discussion, this provides a much better perspective of world temperatures:




You can clearly see that the current rate of warming hasn't been seen in 6000 years, and the range is unprecedented in the past 2000 years of human civilization.

Have you ever noticed that when we exit winter, the temperatures warm up for a while, then fall, then warm, then fall. Ice melts, then perhaps it snows some more, but the warming trend continues until winter is over. The exit from an ice age follows the same pattern. The overall temperature trend is up until it gets warm. The end of winter doesn't happen on a particular date as suggested by the calender. That is nothing more than our own invention. The end of winter happens when there is no more winter weather, and the ice age ends, when no appreciable amount of ice remains, ANYWHERE.

The purpose of my question was to expose the faulty reasoning in your argument. You were arguing that the planet is warming because it is exiting an ice age. But since exiting an ice age simply means that the planet is warming up, your argument was circular.

What's important here is that ice ages don't just magically begin and end. Something makes them begin or end, in the same way that Earth's axial tilt is responsible for the shift from Winter to Summer.

[Winter wind]

I'm beginning to see that there is no way to properly come to an answer without being a climatologist. Otherwise someone can just post a wavy line and say that it is a very importent graph. So why not just put a post of how many professional scientist are on each side on this issue.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: EnragedParrot Pale Rider, your graph shows only changes on geologic timescales. Fluctuations in the greenhouse effect have very little effect on changes over such long time periods. The changes you're showing are believed to be most strongly influenced by the position of land masses across Earth's surface. Lack of land mass at the poles prevents the formation of large ice sheets, for example.

Oddly enough, however, the same cycles keep repeating no matter where the land masses are to be found.

And would you call the arctic ice sheet small? There certainl is no land mass there.

Quote by: EnragedParrot Note that the most recent large scale warming showed on your graph occurs at a rate of about six degrees centigrade over a period of about 30 million years (this is a very rough estimate). The current warming is occurring at a rate of about .7 degree per century. This would amount to a 210,000 degree increase over a thirty million year period (which is about 38 times hotter than the surface of the sun). Obviously the current warming is much different from the changes visible on your graph.

Actually that is not correct. Computer simulations predict .7 degrees per century. Computer simulations, however, do not match observed data which should, to thinking people, make their predictions suspect.

Quote by: EnragedParrot Your graph has too low a resolution to show any changes relevant to the human race. The changes we're interested into occur over periods of thousands, even hundreds, of years. For our discussion, this provides a much better perspective of world temperatures:

My point is that there isn't even the smallest shred of evidence to support the idea that the exit from the present ice age is in any way different than exits from previous ice ages.

Quote by: EnragedParrot You can clearly see that the current rate of warming hasn't been seen in 6000 years, and the range is unprecedented in the past 2000 years of human civilization.

Interesting that you stop at 6000 years and then bring up 2000 years. Tell me, exactly what caused greater changes during periods in which man was having a minimal impact on anything?

Quote by: EnragedParrot The purpose of my question was to expose the faulty reasoning in your argument. You were arguing that the planet is warming because it is exiting an ice age. But since exiting an ice age simply means that the planet is warming up, your argument was circular.

Actually, I was arguing that we are coming out of an ice age because the earth was warming. The serious warming began some 14,000 years ago and continues. Once again I ask; exactly what is surprising about the fact that the warming trend continues?

Quote by: EnragedParrot What's important here is that ice ages don't just magically begin and end. Something makes them begin or end, in the same way that Earth's axial tilt is responsible for the shift from Winter to Summer.

So tell me, what makes them begin and end?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Winter wind I'm beginning to see that there is no way to properly come to an answer without being a climatologist. Otherwise someone can just post a wavy line and say that it is a very importent graph. So why not just put a post of how many professional scientist are on each side on this issue.

Actually, being a climatologist doesn't help either. One comes to the conclusion that man is responsible for climate change when one is exposed not to the data, but to the money to be had if one is willing to make the claim. It is somewhat difficult to find a climatologist who does not depend upon grant money for his daily bread who believes in anthropogenic global warming.