Astronomers Find Dust in the Wind of Black Holes:

[Praxius]

NASA - Astronomers Find Dust in the Wind of Black Holes

The hit song that proclaimed, "All we are is dust in the wind," may have some cosmic truth to it. New findings from NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope suggest that space dust -- the same stuff that makes up living creatures and planets -- was manufactured in large quantities in the winds of black holes that populated our early universe. The findings are a significant new clue in an unsolved mystery: where did all the dust in the young universe originate? "We were surprised to find what appears to be freshly made dust entrained in the winds that blow away from supermassive black holes," said Ciska Markwick-Kemper of the University of Manchester, U.K. Markwick-Kemper is lead author of a new paper appearing in an upcoming issue of the Astrophysical Journal Letters. "This could explain where the dust came from that was needed to make the first generations of stars in the early universe." Space dust is essential to the formation of planets, stars, galaxies and even life as we know it. The dust in our corner of the universe was piped out by dying stars that were once a lot like our sun. But, when the universe was less than a tenth of its present age of 13.7 billion years, sun-like stars hadn't been around long enough to die and make dust. So, what produced the precious substance back when the universe was just a toddler? Theorists have long-postulated that short-lived, massive exploding stars, or supernovae, might be the source of this mysterious dust, while others have proposed that a type of energetic, growing supermassive black hole, called a quasar, could be a contributing factor. A quasar consists of a supermassive black hole surrounded by a dusty doughnut-shaped cloud that feeds it. Theoretically, dust could form in the outer portion of the winds that slowly blow away from this doughnut cloud. "Quasars are like the Cookie Monster," said co-author Sarah Gallagher of the University of California at Los Angeles, who is currently a visiting astronomer at the University of Western Ontario, Canada. "They are messy eaters, and they can consume less matter than they spit out in the form of winds." Nobody has found conclusive proof that either quasar winds or supernovae can create enough dust to explain what is observed in the early universe. Markwick-Kemper and her team decided to test the former theory and investigate a quasar, called PG2112+059, located in the center of a galaxy about 8 billion light-years way. Although this particular quasar is not located in the early universe, because it is closer, it is an easier target for addressing the question of whether quasars can make dust. The team used Spitzer's infrared spectrograph instrument to split apart infrared light from the quasar and look for signs of various minerals. They found a mix of the ingredients that make up glass, sand, marble and even rubies and sapphires. While the mineral constituting glass was expected, the minerals for sand, marble and rubies were a surprise. Why? These minerals are not typically detected floating around galaxies, suggesting they could have been freshly formed in the winds rushing away from the quasar. For instance, the ingredient that makes up sand, crystalline silicate, doesn't survive for long free-floating in space. Radiation from stars zaps the minerals back to an amorphous, glass-like state. The presence of crystalline silicate therefore suggests something -- possibly the quasars winds -- is churning out the newly made substance. Markwick-Kemper and her team say the case of the missing dust is not firmly shut. They hope to study more quasars for further evidence of their dust-making abilities. Also, according to the astronomers, quasars may not be the only source of dust in the early universe. "Supernovae might have been more important for creating dust in some environments, while quasars were more important in others," said Markwick-Kemper. "For now, we are very excited to have identified the different species of dust in a quasar billions of light-years away." Other authors of this paper include Dean Hines of the Space Science Institute, Boulder, Colo., and Jeroen Bouwman of the Max Planck Institute for Astronomy, Heidelberg, Germany. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., manages the Spitzer Space Telescope mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Science operations are conducted at the Spitzer Science Center at the California Institute of Technology, also in Pasadena. Caltech manages JPL for NASA. Spitzer's infrared spectrograph was built by Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. Its development was led by Jim Houck of Cornell.

Some food for thought for those people always debating about how things originated in the universe, what exactly is involved in black holes and what they do. The above theories seem to show that back holes tend to do more then just suck.

[Technosoul]

The song qoute is 'we are all stardust' .

This would suggest to this layman that the universe can recycle, if the dust can end up as a star, then die as a star, then re-create another star.

This latest finding as just now reported here in this forum might support my speculation (aka theory) that black holes are the wombs of the universe rather then the consumers of the universe. Or at least that they now appear to serve a duel role in that respect.

My speculation was rejected by posters here in this forum, but now I have more evidence due to this discovery as reported in the O.P.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Technosoul The song qoute is 'we are all stardust' . This would suggest to this layman that the universe can recycle, if the dust can end up as a star, then die as a star, then re-create another star. This latest finding as just now reported here in this forum might support my speculation (aka theory) that black holes are the wombs of the universe rather then the consumers of the universe. Or at least that they now appear to serve a duel role in that respect. My speculation was rejected by posters here in this forum, but now I have more evidence due to this discovery as reported in the O.P.

As I understand the article the quasars acted like giant blenders being run without lids that spewed stuff all over the place and not actually making matter.

I've heard the theory that black holes might actually generate some matter in addition to sucking it in, but as far as I know nobody has ever put it to a thorough test. I think you'll like this article:

Two Against the Big Bang | Cosmology | DISCOVER Magazine

[Praxius]

Quote by: Technosoul The song qoute is 'we are all stardust' .

No no... it's Dust in the Wind..... remember Bill & Ted's Exellent Adventure?

I can't remember the orignal band who played it.... I don't think it was Journey, but something like that..... maybe Styx?

*sings* Dust in the wind...... All we are is dust in the wind.... doo doo doo....

This would suggest to this layman that the universe can recycle, if the dust can end up as a star, then die as a star, then re-create another star. This latest finding as just now reported here in this forum might support my speculation (aka theory) that black holes are the wombs of the universe rather then the consumers of the universe. Or at least that they now appear to serve a duel role in that respect. My speculation was rejected by posters here in this forum, but now I have more evidence due to this discovery as reported in the O.P.

See myself, I always considdered Black Holes as not something that destroyed things into non-existance.... but more-so "Gateways" from our universe, to whatever is on the other side.

They say Energy can not be created from nothing, and yet, energy is always constant, so therefore it just can not be destroyed at the same time... so it's gotta go somewhere.... and whereever that is, time will tell.

[Praxius]

Actually speaking of dust in the wind.... if the nuclear war comes our way in the future, we'll all literally be dust in the wind.

[5010]

You are refering to Kansas from side 2 of the album Point of Know Return. I was a big fan of them in the 70's. There was a cerebral side of the 70's but all we think about is that stupid disco. Kansas was right up there with bands like Genesis, Yes, Rush, Styx, Pink Floyd.

The thing about black holes we forget is that only stuff that enters the event horizon is taken out of our cosmos. Everything else is just accelerated and decelerated at varying rates depending on trajectory. A bit of stretching would happen.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: 5010 You are refering to Kansas from side 2 of the album Point of Know Return. I was a big fan of them in the 70's. There was a cerebral side of the 70's but all we think about is that stupid disco. Kansas was right up there with bands like Genesis, Yes, Rush, Styx, Pink Floyd. The thing about black holes we forget is that only stuff that enters the event horizon is taken out of our cosmos. Everything else is just accelerated and decelerated at varying rates depending on trajectory. A bit of stretching would happen.

Heh, old Kansas, before they became popular ROCKED!


Well, it appears that the event horizon isn't so scary after all. ( Well, presuming you weren't trying to navigate it. )


I had long suspected that some scientists claim that everything entering the black hole was destroyed was a jump to conclusions, and this pretty much proves it.


I thought it was rather simple to just assume everything entering the black hole would be destroyed, but it's nice to have vindication.

[5010]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I thought it was rather simple to just assume everything entering the black hole would be destroyed, but it's nice to have vindication.

Well unless you pass within the event horizon, you merely skirt the black hole. Unfortunately, if there are a lot of other skirters like you, there is the chance of collision. So I would expect the vicinity near the horizon to include a lot of speedy pulverized stuff.

That would make things pretty hot. Like hot enough to send a dust cloud that was once you partly out and partly in to the jaws of oblivion.

But if you come to a black hole alone in a vacuum at a near miss trajectory, you only have to worry about the stretching.

[Praxius]

Ah Kansas... that's the one. It's all coming back to me now.

[Chancellor]

Sounds like the basis for a new cult religion.

[Praxius]

Quote by: 5010 Well unless you pass within the event horizon, you merely skirt the black hole. Unfortunately, if there are a lot of other skirters like you, there is the chance of collision. So I would expect the vicinity near the horizon to include a lot of speedy pulverized stuff. That would make things pretty hot. Like hot enough to send a dust cloud that was once you partly out and partly in to the jaws of oblivion. But if you come to a black hole alone in a vacuum at a near miss trajectory, you only have to worry about the stretching.

But that stretching is the light bending into one location..... there is yet to be proof that it is also physical, and even if it is physical, would we be hurt or killed during this process, or is it like looking at something under water (Distorted)? Or like a star trek transporter?

Everything in this universe is all atoms.... energy is always constant, so if we could figure out a way to isolate ourselves and our matter, could it be possible someday to go beyond just landing on planets, but actually passing through a black hole to the other side?

When you think about it.... the sound barrier was similar, where jets would attempt to reach the barrier, but eventually would disintergrate and be destroyed, until aviational design evolved the back wings and other parts of the jet, to be more streamlined to past the sound barrier and beyond.

I imagine someday we will do the same with our space ships in the future and possibly learn how to pass through hostile enviroments, even a blackhole.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Praxius But that stretching is the light bending into one location..... there is yet to be proof that it is also physical, and even if it is physical, would we be hurt or killed during this process, or is it like looking at something under water (Distorted)? Or like a star trek transporter? Everything in this universe is all atoms.... energy is always constant, so if we could figure out a way to isolate ourselves and our matter, could it be possible someday to go beyond just landing on planets, but actually passing through a black hole to the other side? When you think about it.... the sound barrier was similar, where jets would attempt to reach the barrier, but eventually would disintergrate and be destroyed, until aviational design evolved the back wings and other parts of the jet, to be more streamlined to past the sound barrier and beyond. I imagine someday we will do the same with our space ships in the future and possibly learn how to pass through hostile enviroments, even a blackhole.

The problem is tides. You weight just slightly less on top of Mt. Everest than you do at sea level. Its something like an ounce for your average man, but being further from the majority of the Earth does have an effect.

As you approach a point mass, the gravity tugging on your toes becomes stronger than the gravity on your head because your toes are slightly closer. Same principle, just a stronger and more concentrated field. The problem is that as you approach you're eventually going to be torn in half by the tides, and then the pieces get shredded and so on until the protons in your body crack in half. This might hurt a bit.

Things might someday go through a black hole, but they won't be made of any sort of matter currently known to science. Short of meeting some Pierson's Puppeteers or locating a Slaver stasis cell, we're out of luck.

[rez]

Quote by: Chancellor Sounds like the basis for a new cult religion.

sounds like you need to go back to the Dark Ages.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Praxius No no... it's Dust in the Wind..... remember Bill & Ted's Exellent Adventure? I can't remember the orignal band who played it.... I don't think it was Journey, but something like that..... maybe Styx? *sings* Dust in the wind...... All we are is dust in the wind.... doo doo doo.... See myself, I always considdered Black Holes as not something that destroyed things into non-existance.... but more-so "Gateways" from our universe, to whatever is on the other side. They say Energy can not be created from nothing, and yet, energy is always constant, so therefore it just can not be destroyed at the same time... so it's gotta go somewhere.... and whereever that is, time will tell.

Sorry I was thinking of another song about Woodstock as sung by Crosby Stills Nash and Young. (and some famous folk singer as well?).

One question: how come the photo of dust in a black hole has so much bright light in it, it got me confused.

I am not be big fan of theories but the photos taken of the universe are fantastic, like looking at rare gems or hippy art. They have another mission heading for Pulto (and they took new photos on the way of other planets and moons). I hope funding for more space exploration continues.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Thanatos The problem is tides. You weight just slightly less on top of Mt. Everest than you do at sea level. Its something like an ounce for your average man, but being further from the majority of the Earth does have an effect. As you approach a point mass, the gravity tugging on your toes becomes stronger than the gravity on your head because your toes are slightly closer. Same principle, just a stronger and more concentrated field. The problem is that as you approach you're eventually going to be torn in half by the tides, and then the pieces get shredded and so on until the protons in your body crack in half. This might hurt a bit.

Ah, this may occur if something was holding the rest of your body in place, but if the pull is stronger at your toes, then that would just pull the rest of your body with it, like me pulling you by the arm. If one tide is stronger then the other, then you would be overpowered by the stronger one and there wouldn't be a conflicting tide rip..... like a wirlpool in the ocean or something.... it's got greater pull then the air above the water or your own bouyancy, so you'd be sucked under.

I assume this, because you said one was stronger then the other... in order for it to rip you to shreds, both tides would require equal force in opposite directions.

*shrugs* I dunno... let me go look it up...

[Praxius]

Quote by: Technosoul Sorry I was thinking of another song about Woodstock as sung by Crosby Stills Nash and Young. (and some famous folk singer as well?). One question: how come the photo of dust in a black hole has so much bright light in it, it got me confused. I am not be big fan of theories but the photos taken of the universe are fantastic, like looking at rare gems or hippy art. They have another mission heading for Pulto (and they took new photos on the way of other planets and moons). I hope funding for more space exploration continues.

These are usually always artist renderings of what they speculate it should look like, or just to show the different objects in question.

Other times, they will superimpose various thermal, 3D, sonic, x-ray shots over one another, as in each method they use to scan an object in space, only focuses on a paticular aspect..

In this case, this was a 3D Rendering by an artist, not the actual black hole in question.

quote from the site in regards to the image:

Image right: Artist concept of dusty grains in the winds of a quasar Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech

If you would like to see a full sized, high quality shot of this:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1...tist-hires.jpg
2.5MB Jpg file.

Here is a list of other art, animations and the sort done by various artists for NASA:

NASA - Spitzer Space Telescope Multimedia Page

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Praxius Ah, this may occur if something was holding the rest of your body in place, but if the pull is stronger at your toes, then that would just pull the rest of your body with it, like me pulling you by the arm. If one tide is stronger then the other, then you would be overpowered by the stronger one and there wouldn't be a conflicting tide rip..... like a wirlpool in the ocean or something.... it's got greater pull then the air above the water or your own bouyancy, so you'd be sucked under. I assume this, because you said one was stronger then the other... in order for it to rip you to shreds, both tides would require equal force in opposite directions. *shrugs* I dunno... let me go look it up...

Spaghettification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your center of mass is always in freefall, but unfortunately the rest of you is not. As you first approach, your hair trails along behind you as its dragged along by your toes. Your toes begin to rocket downward, and while your head is rocketing too its rocketing to a slightly lesser extent and the force necessary to keep it up to speed has to be transmitted via your spine. If your toes are at one million Earth gravities and your head is only at 999,900 Earth gravities its easy to see how the force being transmitted by your spine could be lethal. The actual math is more complicated because the tides are acting along a gradient through your body, but the results are pretty much the same.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: rez sounds like you need to go back to the Dark Ages.

Sounds like you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Chancellor Sounds like the basis for a new cult religion.

Yes, I can picture it now. A bunch of people in white robes sitting on pillows in a room decorated in a space motif. In the front of the room, a charismatic man/woman - the priest/priestess - is praising the ethereal and then tells a story about how the dust in the wind created the Earth and seeded all the life on it and about everyone returning to that dust from whence they came, returning to the dust in the wind. The priest/priestess then has the choir off to the side lead the congregation in Dust In The Wind as a benediction.

:)

[5010]

The reason for the "opposite" pull is simply momentum.

For example, if you are floating in free-fall and someone jerks your arm, it still hurts.

But I think the chance of there being nothing around but pure vacuum is quite small. More likely you are obliterated by collisions and never get to experience the exquisite pain of being stretched in an infinite version of the medieval rack.