Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

John · Oct 12, 2003, 05:46 am

This is entirely theoretical, however I would like to see your opinions on the matter.

If somehow it was possible to predict where every single atom and molecule was at any given point in time, would it then be possible to predict the future? If you knew these things would you then be able to predict the next movement at any given point? As every atom has to interact and react to eachother in a certain way, if you knew where they all are, you would then be able to pin point where they will be in 5 seconds time due to certain interactions or reactions.

Its a pretty out there type concept, but if you think about it, it actually seems quite believable. Whether or not we will ever get the technology to be able to do these types of things is another question.

Dislogic · Oct 12, 2003, 01:38 pm

well i have heard this type of thing in scifi movies and such but i personally dont know enough about atoms and science in general to make such assumptions.

G. Adams · Oct 12, 2003, 07:41 pm

Yes. If you knew everything about everything at a given moment, you would be able to predict everything ever after. but if you actually did know that much about a given moment, you would have to be god. in which case you would know everything anyway. still, the theory is right.

Oct 12, 2003, 08:28 pm

Why god and not some machine that can calculate tons of information.?I'm not talking anything we have available now of course.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 13, 2003, 12:52 am

because the total information abound is as difficult for you to comprehend, let alone process, as your true understanding of the number "one trillion." As in "our national deficit has more than 5 trillion dollars." Here's an idea:

If you counted from one to a million at one number a second, you'd reach a million in 11 days...

...a billion in 31 years...

...and a trillion in 31 thousand years, about six times the extent of recorded human history.

Now imagine if the universe had something like an octillion units to process (which probably ain't scratching the surface of the earth let alone the universe). It's so far fetched as to be impossible.

John · Oct 13, 2003, 04:45 am

Give these DNA computers 50 years development and see how much they can process then. It would be coming close, apparently already they would be a trillion times faster than a normal processor.

G. Adams · Oct 13, 2003, 01:18 pm

Why God? Well if it is a machine then it requires creation and input from whatever sentient being. Which would require this being to understand everything in a given moment. And that would require you to know everything about this universe, and all others in the multiverse. Plus all possible other realities (see superstring theory for details). And then, on top of that, you would have to know everything about any real God and heaven, because if they exist they may have an impact too. And the only being that would know all this would have to be a God, because only God can know God's will. If he exists.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 13, 2003, 02:53 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by @--
Give these DNA computers 50 years development and see how much they can process then. It would be coming close, apparently already they would be a trillion times faster than a normal processor.

That would be in the millions. Try again.

TwoShanks · Oct 15, 2003, 08:52 am

In a classical Newtonian universe, a snapshot of the position and momentum of every particle at one moment would allow you to extrapolate exactly what would happen at any point in the future or had happened at any point in the past.

Problem is, it doesn't work because the Newtonian universe is wrong. Heisenberg uncertainty principle dictates you can never know the position and momentum to an arbitrary degree of accuracy, and quantum mechanics means you can only work out the probability of events happening.

Therefore, the scenario described can't ever happen.

**Pooeypants** · Oct 15, 2003, 12:06 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (John,)
This is entirely theoretical, however I would like to see your opinions on the matter.

If somehow it was possible to predict where every single atom and molecule was at any given point in time, would it then be possible to predict the future? If you knew these things would you then be able to predict the next movement at any given point? As every atom has to interact and react to eachother in a certain way, if you knew where they all are, you would then be able to pin point where they will be in 5 seconds time due to certain interactions or reactions.

Its a pretty out there type concept, but if you think about it, it actually seems quite believable. Whether or not we will ever get the technology to be able to do these types of things is another question.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
You've kind of just described the Grand Unifed Theory or was that the Theory of Everything? Anyho, basically with that you can predict the velocity and position etc of all particles. Now as for knowing where every atom is at any single time you'll always have the heisenberg uncertainty principle to ruin the fun.

G. Adams · Oct 15, 2003, 12:59 pm

the question wasn't whether you could ever know where everything was, rather if you did could you accurately predict the future. which you could. as i said, achieving such a state would require you to be god.

castille · Oct 17, 2003, 01:05 pm

If you can predict something, you can't do anything about it.

See, if you predict something, then intervene, you didn't predict it.

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 02:41 pm

You couldn't change anything, because you would have already predicted your move to change it.

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 02:42 pm

And we shouldn't be saying predict, because you are not predicting, as you would know for sure.

Vercingetorix · Oct 25, 2003, 02:10 pm

No. Physics on the quantum level works completely different from physics and logic on the relative level--sometimes effects happen before causes, and it has been observed, too. You cannot account for the huge numbers of particles that appear out of nowhere and disappear soon afterwards for no reason, but still there just long enough to affect (effect?) outcome.

As'rek · Oct 27, 2003, 05:28 am

Sorry, but I didn't read all the posts..

John: Your theory was EXACTLY the same as a conversation from a recent "Stargate" epsiode - also, some of your responses are the same to the show.

It seems a reasonable theory, but I'd have to agree with RebelWithanAK

Paavo · Nov 7, 2003, 08:53 am

What about the mind? Could human choices be calculated too? Human beings affect alot in this world of ours with their choices and actions, could that be predicted too?
o_Oa

G. Adams · Nov 7, 2003, 09:03 am

yes, because there is no such thing as human choice, only reactions. and if you can know all of the factors involved in a persons reaction, you know how they will act.

Impenitent · Nov 7, 2003, 09:22 am

the grand unified theory of human actions?

nope...

"I will choose freewill"...

**Pooeypants** · Nov 9, 2003, 01:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
yes, because there is no such thing as human choice, only reactions. and if you can know all of the factors involved in a persons reaction, you know how they will act.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Choice is an illusion...right? :D

Oct 12, 2003, 05:46 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
John Molten Ash Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 118	This is entirely theoretical, however I would like to see your opinions on the matter. If somehow it was possible to predict where every single atom and molecule was at any given point in time, would it then be possible to predict the future? If you knew these things would you then be able to predict the next movement at any given point? As every atom has to interact and react to eachother in a certain way, if you knew where they all are, you would then be able to pin point where they will be in 5 seconds time due to certain interactions or reactions. Its a pretty out there type concept, but if you think about it, it actually seems quite believable. Whether or not we will ever get the technology to be able to do these types of things is another question. Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Oct 12, 2003, 01:38 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Dislogic Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 115	well i have heard this type of thing in scifi movies and such but i personally dont know enough about atoms and science in general to make such assumptions. <span style='color:gray'><span style='font-family:Geneva'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:100%'>Kerry/Edwards 2004: He can't make up his mind, but at least he has one.</span></span></span>

Oct 12, 2003, 07:41 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Yes. If you knew everything about everything at a given moment, you would be able to predict everything ever after. but if you actually did know that much about a given moment, you would have to be god. in which case you would know everything anyway. still, the theory is right. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 13, 2003, 12:52 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	because the total information abound is as difficult for you to comprehend, let alone process, as your true understanding of the number "one trillion." As in "our national deficit has more than 5 trillion dollars." Here's an idea: If you counted from one to a million at one number a second, you'd reach a million in 11 days... ...a billion in 31 years... ...and a trillion in 31 thousand years, about six times the extent of recorded human history. Now imagine if the universe had something like an octillion units to process (which probably ain't scratching the surface of the earth let alone the universe). It's so far fetched as to be impossible. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 13, 2003, 04:45 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
John Molten Ash Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 118	Give these DNA computers 50 years development and see how much they can process then. It would be coming close, apparently already they would be a trillion times faster than a normal processor. Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Oct 12, 2003, 08:28 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
dotComa Guest Posts: n/a	Why god and not some machine that can calculate tons of information.?I'm not talking anything we have available now of course.

Oct 13, 2003, 01:18 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Why God? Well if it is a machine then it requires creation and input from whatever sentient being. Which would require this being to understand everything in a given moment. And that would require you to know everything about this universe, and all others in the multiverse. Plus all possible other realities (see superstring theory for details). And then, on top of that, you would have to know everything about any real God and heaven, because if they exist they may have an impact too. And the only being that would know all this would have to be a God, because only God can know God's will. If he exists. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 15, 2003, 08:52 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
TwoShanks Molten Ash Posts: 29	In a classical Newtonian universe, a snapshot of the position and momentum of every particle at one moment would allow you to extrapolate exactly what would happen at any point in the future or had happened at any point in the past. Problem is, it doesn't work because the Newtonian universe is wrong. Heisenberg uncertainty principle dictates you can never know the position and momentum to an arbitrary degree of accuracy, and quantum mechanics means you can only work out the probability of events happening. Therefore, the scenario described can't ever happen.

Oct 15, 2003, 12:06 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,472	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (John,) This is entirely theoretical, however I would like to see your opinions on the matter. If somehow it was possible to predict where every single atom and molecule was at any given point in time, would it then be possible to predict the future? If you knew these things would you then be able to predict the next movement at any given point? As every atom has to interact and react to eachother in a certain way, if you knew where they all are, you would then be able to pin point where they will be in 5 seconds time due to certain interactions or reactions. Its a pretty out there type concept, but if you think about it, it actually seems quite believable. Whether or not we will ever get the technology to be able to do these types of things is another question.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You've kind of just described the Grand Unifed Theory or was that the Theory of Everything? Anyho, basically with that you can predict the velocity and position etc of all particles. Now as for knowing where every atom is at any single time you'll always have the heisenberg uncertainty principle to ruin the fun. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Oct 15, 2003, 12:59 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	the question wasn't whether you could ever know where everything was, rather if you did could you accurately predict the future. which you could. as i said, achieving such a state would require you to be god. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 17, 2003, 01:05 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	If you can predict something, you can't do anything about it. See, if you predict something, then intervene, you didn't predict it. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 17, 2003, 02:41 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	You couldn't change anything, because you would have already predicted your move to change it. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 17, 2003, 02:42 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	And we shouldn't be saying predict, because you are not predicting, as you would know for sure. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 25, 2003, 02:10 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Vercingetorix Sedimentary Rock Location: Everywhere. Yes, I see you. Posts: 23	No. Physics on the quantum level works completely different from physics and logic on the relative level--sometimes effects happen before causes, and it has been observed, too. You cannot account for the huge numbers of particles that appear out of nowhere and disappear soon afterwards for no reason, but still there just long enough to affect (effect?) outcome.

Oct 27, 2003, 05:28 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
As'rek Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Sorry, but I didn't read all the posts.. John: Your theory was EXACTLY the same as a conversation from a recent "Stargate" epsiode - also, some of your responses are the same to the show. It seems a reasonable theory, but I'd have to agree with RebelWithanAK

Nov 7, 2003, 08:53 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	What about the mind? Could human choices be calculated too? Human beings affect alot in this world of ours with their choices and actions, could that be predicted too? o_Oa

Nov 7, 2003, 09:03 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	yes, because there is no such thing as human choice, only reactions. and if you can know all of the factors involved in a persons reaction, you know how they will act. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 7, 2003, 09:22 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	the grand unified theory of human actions? nope... "I will choose freewill"... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 9, 2003, 01:39 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,472	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) yes, because there is no such thing as human choice, only reactions. and if you can know all of the factors involved in a persons reaction, you know how they will act.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Choice is an illusion...right? :D War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before