2nd Hand Smoke, the Myth

[madprophet]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Can you afford any luxuries, was my point? Video games, movie rentals, movie tickets, etc? If you can, you can afford other things with HIGHER precedence, as you seem to claim that health is the only concern.

I splurged last week and spent four dollars on the library book sale. Does that count? I'll be eating noodles for a couple days. Seriously, dude, I am actually poor, not pretend poor. My clothes are actually hand-me-downs. My dad gave me his old boots (lucky we got the same size foot.) I hate video games and couldn't afford them anyway. I get movies from the library. I get books from the library. I don't have a car. I have a guitar that was given to me, and that I actually make money playing, so that could hardly be considered a luxury. I could probably shave five bucks off my food budget every week. And as I've said, this computer setup cost not a penny.

[madprophet]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: While I have thick skin, these incessant names and insults are travelling into seventh grader territory. Are you getting some satisfaction, or venting, or just derailing?

Hey, lizard-skin wasn't pejorative. I was being playful.

I might get a little satisfaction, but then, I never compared someone to a five-year-old (Lullaby) or made needless cracks about reading comprehension (that was you.) I respond in kind.

[madprophet]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Look at the threads I start, you will see my arguments.

Still not impressed.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Start your own debate thread with me, and we can cover them all, one at a time.

Wish I had the time, man, you are a lot of fun.

[Pooeypants]

Children, stop the bickering now.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Pooeypants Children, stop the bickering now.

HEY! You didn't say we can't respond to this. So I'mma respond!!

um..

yeah.. I pretty much agree.. :eek:

[Lullaby Chainer]

Someone tell me why 2nd hand smoke does not cause addiction.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Someone tell me why 2nd hand smoke does not cause addiction.

Uhh...because it's unpleasant?

[Morgan_Freeman]

As an occasional 1st hand smoker, I claim that smoking does not necessarily cause addiction. I tried to get addicted, but no dice.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: So you are telling me, if something is unhealthy, the government has a right to infringe on your rights to prevent you from doing it simply based on that?

Well...yes.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman As an occasional 1st hand smoker, I claim that smoking does not necessarily cause addiction. I tried to get addicted, but no dice.

As nicotine is generally considered as more addictive than herione, that is a good trick if you can manage it.

Second hand smoke may be addictive. My guess is that second hand smoke is less addictive because the nicotine is largely absorbed into the bloodstream of the smoker leaving the rest of us to gag on the smoke.

[brien]

Quote by: madprophet That's because Brien didn't say anything worth replying to. Either one of you other bozos has said it, as in the first and third case, or like in the second, it was complete meaningless conjecture (I, personally, have never known anyone that's died of any form of lung cancer. So what? That, like his pondering, is just plain stupid.) Plus, I've been a bit busy juggling conversation with three other people, one of whom likes to butt in with non sequiturs and post long, rambling posts filled with mostly nonsense (I'm looking at you there, lizard-skin.)

That's because Brien didn't say anything worth replying to.

That because "bozos" who can't answer intelligent questions have nothing to add to intelligent conversations. I asked anyone to name one person that has died from 2nd hand smoke. Obviously you can't do it so you can't reply. So, just who is the "bozo" here?:rolleyes:

n December of 1992 the EPA released it's now famous report on second hand smoke. The report claimed that SHS causes 3,000 deaths a year, and classified it as a class A carcinogen

I am not asking for 3000 names, just one. I don't believe the government for one second about 3000 deaths per year. Same as I don't believe the government about other lies that come from other agencies that merely publish so called "facts" to justify their existence.

I find it quite amusing that people who normally doubt the government about other "facts" are so warm and fuzzy in accepting these so called "facts". How is it that the government can provide this statistic and not the names of the 3000 people. Hey, give up the names and I will lend credence to the claim.

No doubt that 2nd hand smoke can make some people sick, but killing them is another leap of faith I am not willing to accept without proof supported by names of real people who actually died from 2nd hand smoke.

If that makes me a "bozo", then give me my clown's suit.

[PatrickHenry]

Passive smoking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A wide array of negative effects are often attributed, in whole or in part, to frequent, long term exposure to second hand smoke. The extent to which the smoke influences the development of these negative effects is the subject of much debate and controversy. Some of the symptoms which have been or are frequently attributed to second hand smoke include: * Increased risk of lung cancer o The effect of passive smoking on lung cancer has been extensively studied. Studies from the USA (1986[8], [9], 1992[10], 1997[11], 2001[12], 2003 [13]), Europe (1998[14]), the UK (1998[15], [16]), and Australia (1997[17]) have consistently shown a significant increase in relative risk among those exposed to passive smoke. * Increased risk of cancer [18] * Increased risk of heart disease [19] * Increased risk of miscarriage and birth defects [20] * Increased risk of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) [21] * Increased risk of developing asthma, both for children[22] and adults[23] [24] * Learning difficulty in children[citation needed] * Increased risk of behavior problems in children, such as depression, anxiety and immaturity. [3] * Increased risk of lung infections[citation needed] * Increased risk of ear infections[25] * Increased risk of allergies in children[26] * Worsening of asthma, allergies, and other conditions[27] Although the nature of passive smoking makes study design problematic, meta-analyses from around the world suggest that dangers of passive smoking are significant.[28] [29] [30] Passive smoking kills about 53,000 nonsmokers per year, making it the 3rd leading cause of preventable death in the U.S.[31]

[Osborn F Enready]

Patrick said: Although the nature of passive smoking makes study design problematic, meta-analyses from around the world suggest that dangers of passive smoking are significant.[

I say:
Yea, and the three "oil change specialists" at Jiffy Lube agree that not changing your oil regularly at their local location, is detrimental to your cars health also.

I am not saying these guys are wrong.....

I am saying it isn't the governments place to regulate, period.

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Passive smoking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PH I don't disagree that 2nd hand smoke is unhealthy. I am asking for the names of people who have died under the following claim.

Passive smoking kills about 53,000 nonsmokers per year, making it the 3rd leading cause of preventable death in the U.S

I see these numbers thrown around recklessly but who are these people? Give me some names.

Particularly you PH , one who doesn't trust the government when it comes to many things, particularly the 9/11 disaster, all of a sudden trusts the government with numbers like these?

At least with the 911 victims, you can get the names of the people who were killed. Where are the names boss? Anyone can make these claims. Prove it with names of the deceased and I will believe this claim.

Here are the leading causes of death in the US;

Link:N C H S - FASTATS - Leading Causes of Death

Deaths-Leading Causes (Data are for U.S. for year indicated) Number of deaths for leading causes of death Heart disease: 654,092 Cancer: 550,270 Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,147 Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,884 Accidents (unintentional injuries): 108,694 Diabetes: 72,815 Alzheimer's disease: 65,829 Influenza/Pneumonia: 61,472 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,762 Septicemia: 33,464 Source: Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2004, tables 7

Link:http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html

Link:U.S. Death Statistics

Here is some smoking related stats:

Link:ACS :: Cigarette Smoking

Health Effects of Smoking Each year, a staggering 440,000 people die in the US from tobacco use. Nearly 1 of every 5 deaths is related to smoking. Cigarettes kill more Americans than alcohol, car accidents, suicide, AIDS, homicide, and illegal drugs combined. Cigarette smoking accounts for at least 30% of all cancer deaths. It is a major cause of cancers of the lung, larynx (voice box), oral cavity, pharynx (throat), and esophagus, and is a contributing cause in the development of cancers of the bladder, pancreas, liver, uterine cervix, kidney, stomach, colon and rectum, and some leukemias. About 87% of lung cancer deaths are caused by smoking. Lung cancer is the leading cause of cancer death among both men and women, and is one of the most difficult cancers to treat. It is very hard to detect when it is in the earliest, most treatable stage. Fortunately, lung cancer is largely a preventable disease. Groups that promote nonsmoking as part of their religion, such as Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists, have much lower rates of lung cancer and other smoking-related cancers. But cancers account for only about half of the deaths related to smoking. Smoking is also a major cause of heart disease, bronchitis, emphysema, and stroke, and contributes to the severity of pneumonia. Tobacco has a damaging affect on women's reproductive health and is associated with increased risk of miscarriage, early delivery (prematurity), stillbirth, infant death, and is a cause of low birth weight in infants. Furthermore, the smoke from cigarettes has a harmful health effect on those around the smoke. (Refer to the American Cancer Society documents "Secondhand Smoke" and "Women and Smoking.")

Hmmmm I wonder where is death caused by 2nd hand smoke? In the above reference?

Once again, I don't disagree that 2nd hand smoke is unhealthy, but I wouold like to see a list of real people who have succmbed to death due to 2nd hand smoke. I would then take their claims of death more seriously.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Thank you for the in depth article, and links Lullaby. I am sure the anti-smoking nazis won't have much to say except "we deny everything", stupid science is wrong anyway if you believe......

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: I am not saying these guys are wrong..... I am saying it isn't the governments place to regulate, period.

LOL. Just a clarification - here you admit that the the risks of second hand smoke are probably not a myth as this thread and Big Tobacco claims. Interesting.

[Lullaby Chainer]

I'd like to mention this again.

First.

What makes 1st hand smoke addictive?

Is this substance a major part in what makes 1st hand smoke harmful?

2nd hand smoke is not addictive, or at least very much less so.. (I've never heard of anyone getting addicted because of 2nd hand smoke.. regardless of the amount)

If 2nd hand smoke lacks the substance that makes it addictive, than what does that say about the dangers of 2nd smoke?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'd like to mention this again. First. What makes 1st hand smoke addictive? Is this substance a major part in what makes 1st hand smoke harmful? 2nd hand smoke is not addictive, or at least very much less so.. (I've never heard of anyone getting addicted because of 2nd hand smoke.. regardless of the amount) If 2nd hand smoke lacks the substance that makes it addictive, than what does that say about the dangers of 2nd smoke?

Nicotine is more addictive than heroin. Nicotine, notwithstanding its addictive qualities, is probably the least dangerous component of cigarette smoke.

From the American Cancer Association site:

Secondhand smoke is classified as a "known human carcinogen" (cancer-causing agent) by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the US National Toxicology Program, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), a branch of the World Health Organization. Tobacco smoke contains over 4,000 chemical compounds. More than 60 of these are known or suspected to cause cancer.

Levelling the playing field for regulation of nicotine

Of all the possible alternative ways of obtaining nicotine, smoking cigarettes remains by far the most addictive. The reason is that smoking cigarettes maximises the rapidity, frequency, reliability, and ease of attainment of the reward from nicotine.2 Nicotine via cigarettes reaches the brain in 10 seconds, which is faster than via intravenous use. Regular smokers of 20 cigarettes per day reinforce their habit with an average of 200 rewards per day. It is much easier and cheaper to purchase a pack of cigarettes (for example, from petrol stations or local supermarkets) than it is to purchase a packet of nicotine gum. Unfortunately, cigarettes are the deadliest form of nicotine delivery available on the market. It is not the nicotine per se but the combustion and release of over 40 carcinogens as well as other toxic chemicals that are responsible for the bulk of premature illnesses and deaths that result when cigarettes are used as intended.

[Hostile55]

I'm fed up with these nicotine addict nazis trying to impose their rotten, carcinogenic fumes on others round about them. It's like an obese person slipping some lard into your salad sandwitch while you're not looking. Lets face it, even if it wont do you any harm it f*cking smells. Thankfully in my country, namely scotland, smoking in all public places got banned. which means that I can go to my local and have a few pints without my clothes getting all stunk up. But people protested. Like hell they protested, because smokers aren't just content killing them selves with lung cancer and all that heart shit that happens when you smoke, but they want to inflict it on others round about them. I remember one time I was working as a labourer for this roofing company and at break time when we were sitting in the porto-cabin having a cup of tea the other labourer lit up a cigarette. Now neither I nor the tradesmen smoked, but none of us complained. When the cabin filled up with smoke (and it did so quite quickly) one of the roofers said to me to open the door a little. After break the other labourer expressed to me how upset at the fuss the guy had made. THE FUSS??? He only asked me to open the door a little, frankly the bastared should have smoked it outside out of curtesy. But no. He wanted to inflict his smelly death agent on other people and dare they say anything then they are in the wrong. God damned smokers.

[brien]

Quote by: Hostile55 I'm fed up with these nicotine addict nazis trying to impose their rotten, carcinogenic fumes on others round about them. It's like an obese person slipping some lard into your salad sandwitch while you're not looking. Lets face it, even if it wont do you any harm it f*cking smells. Thankfully in my country, namely scotland, smoking in all public places got banned. which means that I can go to my local and have a few pints without my clothes getting all stunk up. But people protested. Like hell they protested, because smokers aren't just content killing them selves with lung cancer and all that heart shit that happens when you smoke, but they want to inflict it on others round about them. I remember one time I was working as a labourer for this roofing company and at break time when we were sitting in the porto-cabin having a cup of tea the other labourer lit up a cigarette. Now neither I nor the tradesmen smoked, but none of us complained. When the cabin filled up with smoke (and it did so quite quickly) one of the roofers said to me to open the door a little. After break the other labourer expressed to me how upset at the fuss the guy had made. THE FUSS??? He only asked me to open the door a little, frankly the bastared should have smoked it outside out of curtesy. But no. He wanted to inflict his smelly death agent on other people and dare they say anything then they are in the wrong. God damned smokers.

I fully agree with your objections to 2nd hand smoke. Can you name anyone who has been killed by 2nd hand smoke?

Shouldn't all government employees be banned from smoking?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: brien I fully agree with your objections to 2nd hand smoke. Can you name anyone who has been killed by 2nd hand smoke?

Name an Iraqi civilian killed by the war...no, too public, too easy to locate some names...

Name a victim of the Rwandan genocide...

See, just 'cause you can't name individual dead folks doesn't mean they aren't corpses...