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Hostile55 · Oct 18, 2006, 12:21 pm

Greetings,
The subjuect of fluoride in the water supply was brought up by my grandfather who had read an article sent to him by an associate. He comented on its use by the nazis to keep POWs docile and how it is used to make prozac, yada yada yada. I knew staight away there was something wrong with what he was saying so I set out to disprove it by searching for info on the web. A quick web search threw up hundreds of results most of which were along the same spurious and uscientific lines. Talk of it being used in nerve adgents, rat poison, prozac, and - the most sinister part - being pumped into our water supply (I assume to keep the minions in there places). But all of this appeared to be based on flawed science and an over zealous pursuit of a conspiricy theory. I knew straight away that the author of the first article I read knew nothing of even the most fundimental chemistry when he asserted that there was no such thing as fluoride (fluorine plus one electron) and claimed that fluorine was an 'ingredient' used to make prozac (fluoxetine). These pieces of erroneous information, along with others, were used to formulate the conclusion that flouride in our water is damaging our brain little by little, making us docile and inhibited, and is being used to control the masses.

Now, the only tangible piece of info i could find is to the effect of - flouride inhibits thyroid function. I'm pretty sure that the rest of it is bullsh*t but can anyone who really knows what they're talking about give me the low down.

JohnMK · Oct 18, 2006, 10:33 pm

I'm previously aware that fluorine is a constituent of fluoxetine (Prozac). I don't think that makes it particularly dangerous. The end effect of serotonin anti-depressants is a suppression of hippocampal atrophy and the growth of new brain cells.

Are you aware that potassium chloride is used in application of the death penalty in some states? A big whollop of it will stop your heart. The RDA on potassium is 5 g per day. It's why dairy is such a big part of the food pyramid, it's the only cheap, easy, don't-have-to-think-about-it way for Americans to get plenty of potassium. ( Don't go hog wild on low sodium V8 juice) And chloride. Heck that's in table salt! Sodium chloride. And the sodium-free table salts for those who are sensitive to sodium? Potassium chloride!

Are they trying to kill us? No. Is it easy for those with a LITTLE chemistry knowledge to make WRONG conclusions? Easy peasy, absolutely.

An ion often has VERY different behavior compared to its neutral charged equivalent.

Hostile55 · Oct 19, 2006, 08:48 am

Quote:

I'm previously aware that fluorine is a constituent of fluoxetine (Prozac). I don't think that makes it particularly dangerous. The end effect of serotonin anti-depressants is a suppression of hippocampal atrophy and the growth of new brain cells.

The fact that a flourine atom is part of the fluoxetine molecule is a red herring. Fluoxetine has completely different properties from elemental flourine or flouride for that matter. Fluoxetine is a key that fits a lock resulting in increased serotonin levels. The effects of it rely on the shape of the molecule. The shape of the molecule relys on what atoms it is made from and how they are arranged. Flourine or flouride may have some psycotropic effects or even be detrimental to brain tissue(although I strongly doubt both), but those effects would have to rely on the shape of a flourine molecule (ie. Fl2) or the reactivity of flourine or flouride. The flourine atom in fluoxetine is not available to do what elemental flourine would do. As for sodium pottasium and all the other minerals and their various salts; yes too much of anything is going to kill you but how much of a given mineral does it take to adversly effect the body. Ok pottasium chloride may have the ability to shortcircuit a persons heart if enough is ingested but pottasium is an essential mineral (by the way is you don't like milk or are allergic, bananas have pottasium in them. Enjoy) and we need to ingest it in some form. The key is balance. How much flouride are we consuming in our tap water? Is it more than we can piss out? If not whats the problem. If so, your going to fucking tast it in the water. Our bodies are designed (have evolved) that way.

And the best kind of salt is sea salt. Natures finest. Contains a mix of minerals.

Fonceai · Oct 19, 2006, 09:00 am

@Hostile55

As you said, the difference is in the shape of the molecule and the overall properties of the resultant mixture/compound.

Any chemical foreign to our body can kill us eventually given high enough quanitites.

**Pooeypants** · Oct 19, 2006, 09:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: Hostile55

The fact that a flourine atom is part of the fluoxetine molecule is a red herring. Fluoxetine has completely different properties from elemental flourine or flouride for that matter. Fluoxetine is a key that fits a lock resulting in increased serotonin levels. The effects of it rely on the shape of the molecule. The shape of the molecule relys on what atoms it is made from and how they are arranged. Flourine or flouride may have some psycotropic effects or even be detrimental to brain tissue(although I strongly doubt both), but those effects would have to rely on the shape of a flourine molecule (ie. Fl2) or the reactivity of flourine or flouride. The flourine atom in fluoxetine is not available to do what elemental flourine would do. As for sodium pottasium and all the other minerals and their various salts; yes too much of anything is going to kill you but how much of a given mineral does it take to adversly effect the body. Ok pottasium chloride may have the ability to shortcircuit a persons heart if enough is ingested but pottasium is an essential mineral (by the way is you don't like milk or are allergic, bananas have pottasium in them. Enjoy) and we need to ingest it in some form. The key is balance. How much flouride are we consuming in our tap water? Is it more than we can piss out? If not whats the problem. If so, your going to fucking tast it in the water. Our bodies are designed (have evolved) that way.

And the best kind of salt is sea salt. Natures finest. Contains a mix of minerals.

I don't mean to sound harsh but do you realise that you've spelt Fluoride, Fluorine and Potassium incorrectly on every instance?

G. Adams · Oct 19, 2006, 11:29 am

How about we keep the water un-fluoridated, and people who want healthy teeth and bones just drink milk and brush their teeth? There is no NEED for water to be fluoridated, and those of us who think it's a little suspect can start drinking tap water again.

Nathan Struth · Oct 19, 2006, 09:29 pm

Hostile55 · Oct 20, 2006, 10:12 am

Quote:

I don't mean to sound harsh but do you realise that you've spelt Fluoride, Fluorine and Potassium incorrectly on every instance?

What are you, my english teacher?

My chemistry teacher always said we wouldn't get marked on spelling. lol

JohnMK · Oct 20, 2006, 10:20 am

My chemistry teacher gave me my first A-. That ruined a perfectly good 4.0 GPA down to 3.992. Damn them all to hell!

PatrickHenry · Oct 20, 2006, 03:42 pm

Fluoridating drinking water is a bad idea.

The stated purpose is for dental health. But why should all drinking water supplies be treated with a toxin just so that a micronutrient can be consumed by those who need it? Mainly children.

We use water for many purposes, including bathing, washing clothes, watering the garden and many other uses. It is easy to overdose on fluoride and the results are startling: Image:FluorosisFromNIH.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A child's need for this micronutrient can conveniently be supplied with a supplement and there's no need for this stuff to be included in the water supply.

JohnMK · Oct 20, 2006, 06:01 pm

That is obviously true. Government has decided it's easier, however, to force everyone to consume it, rather than waiting for the public to slowly implement healthy behavior and practices. I happen to agree with you that our water should not be fluoridated routinely. Fluoridating public schools would accomplish some of what fluoridating city water supplies does.

The practical result of not fluoridating water supplies though would be an increase in dental carries for several decades until you could buy virtuous behavior for a dime on ebay. The public have gotten so used to the nanny state that they hardly think for themselves anymore. It's positively endemic.

RickSp · Oct 20, 2006, 06:05 pm

I live in a city which does not flouridate its water. My kid's pediatrician prescribed a vitamin with flouride to help compensate. Seemed a good idea to me. Having heard various horror stories about flouride for the last four or five decades, the scary stories seem to have been overblown and the benefits of flouride seem reasonably well established.

Oct 18, 2006, 12:21 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Hostile55 Get the f* down! Posts**: 97	Fluoride??? Greetings, The subjuect of fluoride in the water supply was brought up by my grandfather who had read an article sent to him by an associate. He comented on its use by the nazis to keep POWs docile and how it is used to make prozac, yada yada yada. I knew staight away there was something wrong with what he was saying so I set out to disprove it by searching for info on the web. A quick web search threw up hundreds of results most of which were along the same spurious and uscientific lines. Talk of it being used in nerve adgents, rat poison, prozac, and - the most sinister part - being pumped into our water supply (I assume to keep the minions in there places). But all of this appeared to be based on flawed science and an over zealous pursuit of a conspiricy theory. I knew straight away that the author of the first article I read knew nothing of even the most fundimental chemistry when he asserted that there was no such thing as fluoride (fluorine plus one electron) and claimed that fluorine was an 'ingredient' used to make prozac (fluoxetine). These pieces of erroneous information, along with others, were used to formulate the conclusion that flouride in our water is damaging our brain little by little, making us docile and inhibited, and is being used to control the masses. Now, the only tangible piece of info i could find is to the effect of - flouride inhibits thyroid function. I'm pretty sure that the rest of it is bullsh*t but can anyone who really knows what they're talking about give me the low down.

Oct 19, 2006, 11:29 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	How about we keep the water un-fluoridated, and people who want healthy teeth and bones just drink milk and brush their teeth? There is no NEED for water to be fluoridated, and those of us who think it's a little suspect can start drinking tap water again. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 19, 2006, 09:29 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Nathan Struth don't care Location: NY Posts: 267	lol I'm just a fool caught in the rat race of life (Nathan Struth) please help me solve world hunger, It's hard to do it alone.

Oct 20, 2006, 03:42 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,444	Fluoridating drinking water is a bad idea. The stated purpose is for dental health. But why should all drinking water supplies be treated with a toxin just so that a micronutrient can be consumed by those who need it? Mainly children. We use water for many purposes, including bathing, washing clothes, watering the garden and many other uses. It is easy to overdose on fluoride and the results are startling: Image:FluorosisFromNIH.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A child's need for this micronutrient can conveniently be supplied with a supplement and there's no need for this stuff to be included in the water supply. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Oct 20, 2006, 06:05 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
RickSp Volcanic Erupter Posts: 9,586	I live in a city which does not flouridate its water. My kid's pediatrician prescribed a vitamin with flouride to help compensate. Seemed a good idea to me. Having heard various horror stories about flouride for the last four or five decades, the scary stories seem to have been overblown and the benefits of flouride seem reasonably well established. Rick "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

Oct 18, 2006, 10:33 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
JohnMK Laissez-Faire Location: Seattle Posts: 539	I'm previously aware that fluorine is a constituent of fluoxetine (Prozac). I don't think that makes it particularly dangerous. The end effect of serotonin anti-depressants is a suppression of hippocampal atrophy and the growth of new brain cells. Are you aware that potassium chloride is used in application of the death penalty in some states? A big whollop of it will stop your heart. The RDA on potassium is 5 g per day. It's why dairy is such a big part of the food pyramid, it's the only cheap, easy, don't-have-to-think-about-it way for Americans to get plenty of potassium. ( Don't go hog wild on low sodium V8 juice) And chloride. Heck that's in table salt! Sodium chloride. And the sodium-free table salts for those who are sensitive to sodium? Potassium chloride! Are they trying to kill us? No. Is it easy for those with a LITTLE chemistry knowledge to make WRONG conclusions? Easy peasy, absolutely. An ion often has VERY different behavior compared to its neutral charged equivalent.

Oct 19, 2006, 09:00 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	@Hostile55 As you said, the difference is in the shape of the molecule and the overall properties of the resultant mixture/compound. Any chemical foreign to our body can kill us eventually given high enough quanitites.

Oct 20, 2006, 10:20 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
JohnMK Laissez-Faire Location: Seattle Posts: 539	My chemistry teacher gave me my first A-. That ruined a perfectly good 4.0 GPA down to 3.992. Damn them all to hell!

Oct 20, 2006, 06:01 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
JohnMK Laissez-Faire Location: Seattle Posts: 539	That is obviously true. Government has decided it's easier, however, to force everyone to consume it, rather than waiting for the public to slowly implement healthy behavior and practices. I happen to agree with you that our water should not be fluoridated routinely. Fluoridating public schools would accomplish some of what fluoridating city water supplies does. The practical result of not fluoridating water supplies though would be an increase in dental carries for several decades until you could buy virtuous behavior for a dime on ebay. The public have gotten so used to the nanny state that they hardly think for themselves anymore. It's positively endemic.