Paradise-engineering: The end of all suffering

[Lullaby Chainer]

Link

Quote by: hedweb.com The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of neural architecture - a motivational system based on heritable gradients of bliss. States of sublime well-being are destined to become the genetically pre-programmed norm of mental health. It is predicted that the world's last unpleasant experience will be a precisely dateable event. Two hundred years ago, powerful synthetic pain-killers and surgical anesthetics were unknown. The notion that physical pain could be banished from most people's lives would have seemed absurd. Today most of us in the technically advanced nations take its routine absence for granted. The prospect that what we describe as psychological pain, too, could ever be banished is equally counter-intuitive. The feasibility of its abolition turns its deliberate retention into an issue of social policy and ethical choice.

Thoughts?

Agree? Disagree?

Moral? Immoral?

Good idea? Bad idea?





...scarey?

The Hedonistic Imperative: Table Of Contents

[kubedawg]

People need to learn how to suffer. That's how we stay human. Otherwise we are all the same. There is no way to end suffering, because everyone is 100% different in every way. If something like this were implemented, everyone would be the same, as they would want to achieve the same goals, want the same type of feelings, we'd all be like robots, programmed to do one specific thing, and that's to be happy. But what if that thing that suposedly makes you happy, doesn't really make you happy, or anyone else happy for that matter?

We don't know our purpose in life, we don't know our history, whether it be creation, or evolution, or both, or something completely different. We should stop worrying about why we need to live, and just live. The power of will is in every human being on this earth, and no program like this could change or enhance that. Of course I want to end world hunger, of course I want a cleaner planet, but this is going way beyond that. This plan or whatever you want to call it, is wanting to completely control peoples REAL emotions so that they can no longer feel bad about anything. So, what happens when a person murders another, who is controlled by this substance? They feel happy?

Without pain and suffering, there is no happiness. There are 2 sides to the pole. Even in the first part of that document it tells about bipolar people. For lightness, there is darkness, for rich, there's poor. For good there's bad. Ifyou take one out of the equation, the other one goes as well. This means, NO FEELING AT ALL.

Lifeless robots. Who could live like that? Not being able to be happy or sad or angry or guilty or any other emotion you could think of? This hedonistic bs has bad news written all over it.

[Autolykos]

Well, I'd say that suffering is at least somewhat subjective. On the other hand, genetic engineering and nanotechnology will do nothing to prevent accidents or the failure of reality to meet expectations.

Let me put it to you this way: come genetic engineering and nanotechnology, we will still be human.

- Rob

[Fonceai]

Pain is the best teacher.

Every lesson in life is learned through some degree of mental, psychological, or physical pain.

And before some of you say, "So there was pain in learning algebra?" that's not what I'm writing about.

You learned to learn because, for some reason, you decided the embarassment or loss of TV privileges or whatever caused enough mental/emotional pain to make you want to make sure you got your school lessons learned.

Removing pain removes the genetical programmed teacher. How can we learn anything without pain to serve as the consequence for not learning?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fonceai Pain is the best teacher. Every lesson in life is learned through some degree of mental, psychological, or physical pain. And before some of you say, "So there was pain in learning algebra?" that's not what I'm writing about. You learned to learn because, for some reason, you decided the embarassment or loss of TV privileges or whatever caused enough mental/emotional pain to make you want to make sure you got your school lessons learned. Removing pain removes the genetical programmed teacher. How can we learn anything without pain to serve as the consequence for not learning?

The site's response..

Quote by: Snippet of Intro: 0.4 Life In Dopaminergic Overdrive An important point to stress in the discussion to follow is that many dopamine-driven states of euphoria can actually enhance motivated, goal-directed behaviour in general. Enhanced dopamine function makes one's motivation to act stronger, not weaker. Hyper-dopaminergic states tend also to increase the range of activities an organism finds worth pursuing.

[Fonceai]

What does dopamine-driven euphoria have to do with the elimination of pain?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fonceai What does dopamine-driven euphoria have to do with the elimination of pain?

What do you mean? O.o

[Fonceai]

My post was about how the suppression of pain will deny us of our best, genetically-programmed teaching method.

You responded with something about dopamine-driven euphoria.

It would appear to have nothing to do with my post because you didn't elaborate.

[kubedawg]

dopamine is a chemical released that makes us feel happy, or get an adrenalyn rush of some sort. This can happen during any activities, including sports, video games, sex, violence. Pretty much anything. Drugs also increase the amount of dopamine released. If one were to be at an all high, they'd either start getting used to it, or if it works like it says it does, they would cease to feel. They would be a neutral robot. No emotion whatsoever.

The absense of dopamine in someone is what causes certain types of depression. No feeling of accomplishment, or happiness, so I do feel that in certain cases, drugs are needed to kick start the dopamine in their system, but never a permanent high for everyone.

[Fonceai]

I know that.

But what does that have to do with pain suppression?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fonceai I know that. But what does that have to do with pain suppression?

You know, this isn't just about physical pain. Mental and emotional pain too. According to the site, people will be even more motivated to achieve goals and seek activities that make themselves stronger, not weaker. This does make sense, and dopamine does do this in addition to suppressing such emotional pain as depression, lack of meaning, ect.

That is why, "needing pain to learn" is not true. At least not when you're genetically happy and motivated to succeed. According to the site.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Lullaby That is why, "needing pain to learn" is not true. At least not when you're genetically happy and motivated to succeed. According to the site.

That "according to the site" is the important part.

I do understand it's not just about physical pain. But emotional pain teaches a great lesson too.

There is a concept in psychology which was briefly mentioned, in all places, in The Matrix. That humans gauge their lives by suffering.

If I have no form of pain in my life, that makes me happy is gauges my success.

I'll have to do some research to find information supporting why pain is such a great teacher.

[Autolykos]

It's the nature of all organisms to minimize stimuli that are perceived as painful and maximize those that are perceived as pleasurable. Human beings are no exception here.

With that said, I'd like to again point out that no amount of technology will end suffering. For one thing, anything could be considered suffering. Second, it's not so much that people gauge their lives by suffering, but that people gauge their lives in relative terms, based on their own prior experiences. In other words, there is no absolute yardstick for "quality of life".

- Rob

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Autolykos It's the nature of all organisms to minimize stimuli that are perceived as painful and maximize those that are perceived as pleasurable. Human beings are no exception here. With that said, I'd like to again point out that no amount of technology will end suffering. For one thing, anything could be considered suffering. Second, it's not so much that people gauge their lives by suffering, but that people gauge their lives in relative terms, based on their own prior experiences. In other words, there is no absolute yardstick for "quality of life". - Rob

Please read the site. Specifically this chapter. 1. The Hedonistic Imperative

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fonceai That "according to the site" is the important part. I do understand it's not just about physical pain. But emotional pain teaches a great lesson too. There is a concept in psychology which was briefly mentioned, in all places, in The Matrix. That humans gauge their lives by suffering. If I have no form of pain in my life, that makes me happy is gauges my success. I'll have to do some research to find information supporting why pain is such a great teacher.

Pain is a teacher, yes, no one is disputing that.

I offered a snippet from the The Hedonistic Imperative on why people in this ideal future will be motivated and excited to succeed, learn, and achieve.

Please skim through the chapters and sections here.

[Fonceai]

I read through that, and talked about it with some colleagues.

It kept reminding me or something I couldn't put my finger on, then it hit me.

Equilibrium.

Check that movie out, or read the plot synopsis.

After the final World War, the big one that nearly obliterated the Earth, all the survivors gathered in one area of the world and decided that emotion excess was the cause of all problems.

The result is that multiple times a day people injected themselves with a chemical that suppressed both positive and negative emotional excess.

That's why this whole concept bothers me.

The "Imperative" tries to say that people will be more motivated and excited to succeed, learn, and achieve.

I say bullshit (to the author and the Imperative, not to you, Lullaby).

Think of the satisfaction you got from striving and succeeding.

If I'm already in dopaminergic overdrive, I don't need to create anything. It won't alter anything about how I feel or respond.

You will be suppressing violent urges and all three forms of pain, but you'll be suppressing the drive to achieve as well.

Punishment for crime will mean nothing to me because I'll always be happy. Threaten me with taking away my "dopa-drive" pills and I still won't care because I won't be able to feel fear and pain and loss from the possibility of losing my "dopa-drive".

My daughter's first word won't mean anything to me. I'm already in a state of euphoria; the squeaking "daddy" of a 3 month old won't get any more of a rise out of me.

Just as in Equilibrium, and in the drug at the end of Serenity, you'll be suppressing the urge to live and achieve, not enhancing it.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fonceai I read through that, and talked about it with some colleagues. It kept reminding me or something I couldn't put my finger on, then it hit me. Equilibrium. Check that movie out, or read the plot synopsis. After the final World War, the big one that nearly obliterated the Earth, all the survivors gathered in one area of the world and decided that emotion excess was the cause of all problems. The result is that multiple times a day people injected themselves with a chemical that suppressed both positive and negative emotional excess. That's why this whole concept bothers me. The "Imperative" tries to say that people will be more motivated and excited to succeed, learn, and achieve. I say bullshit (to the author and the Imperative, not to you, Lullaby). Think of the satisfaction you got from striving and succeeding. If I'm already in dopaminergic overdrive, I don't need to create anything. It won't alter anything about how I feel or respond. You will be suppressing violent urges and all three forms of pain, but you'll be suppressing the drive to achieve as well. Punishment for crime will mean nothing to me because I'll always be happy. Threaten me with taking away my "dopa-drive" pills and I still won't care because I won't be able to feel fear and pain and loss from the possibility of losing my "dopa-drive". My daughter's first word won't mean anything to me. I'm already in a state of euphoria; the squeaking "daddy" of a 3 month old won't get any more of a rise out of me. Just as in Equilibrium, and in the drug at the end of Serenity, you'll be suppressing the urge to live and achieve, not enhancing it.

So?

In this state, you'll always be happy, yes. But that doesn't mean you'll feel nothing when your child says, "daddy." You'll actually feel even more joy BECAUSE of what your child said. It will mean MORE to you. EVERYTHING will mean more to you. To say nothing will mean anything to someone, because everything in life is covered in happiness, is to say, "I'm depressed about everything, so I don't care if you kill my mom." That makes no sense what-so-ever.

You also seem to be under the impression that our feelings will be maxed out. This system will eliminate pain and suffering and enhance pleasure and joy. There is no biological max to pleasure or joy, and the proposal isn't pretending to reach a max. You're happier about everything, and THAT MUCH happier about your child saying your name.

[Fonceai]

I'm confused.

By saying "So?" it implies that you agree with my analysis and don't care.

But then you go on to say that it will enhance happiness.

Which is it?

---

Also, I read though that entire site, all the chapters.

He doesn't address the complacency aspect that I mention in my previous post.

---

Finally... when I do a seach for "dopaminergic overdrive" on the web, I keep running across one word.

Psychosis.

Looking further, I found that this state is un-natural. It disturbs the chemical balance of the body.

Not only will it create addiction and dependency (the danger of current dopamine-enhancing drugs) and will create complacency (as I wrote), but it will also place people in a state of psychosis.

The human body was not designed to always be in a state of euphoria. It's unnatural.

The opposite effect is achieved with constant stress and the presence of increased cortisol levels in the blood. When I left the Air Force, my resting cortisol levels matches those of skydiving, fast driving, and other high-risk activities. It's unnatural, and I suffered for it.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a nice idea.

But the fact that neither you nor the author of the document can sensibly address the complacency aspect... and the fact that I would rather keep my body in a state of natural balance... I really don't see this being reasonable or healthy.

[Nathan Struth]

I just finished writing a book of about 32 hand-written pages (will be typed soon) about a story I made about a man taking over the world and brainwashing everyone to his will using high-wavelength RF. He eventually gets rid of world hunger, "global warming", and many other things. He's a scientist that was pissed off and couldnt' take it anymore. If your interested please respond.

[kubedawg]

So does it supress mental and physical pain in all cases or just neutral and normally happy stages? What I mean by this is, look at the bad feelings we have for the decisions we make. If I kill someone, will I feel guilty or happy? Everything becomes the same emotion, which will remove all emotion, not knowning what the feeling of pain is mentally and or physically.