New Earth vs Old Earth

[Compugasm]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Well, God still made it. He just has TIME...lots of TIME! Since He's the creator of the space/time continuum, his resources along that line are limitless.

Then you'd think he could have done a better job with the avacado. The damn pit is too big.

[TehNinja]

Quote by: Milton Bradley You assume that all observable matter in the universe took it's current form at the same time. Galaxies are born, die, and are reborn again in a cyclical nature. The Moon is currntly being scrunched by the earths gravity, and that causes internal friction as the material is jostled around. Again you assume that our Solar System is exactly the same age as the Universe. While the matter that constitutes the Solar System is likely that old, this incarnation of the material is was likely created a much shorter time ago as the older stars in the same group died, and exploded causing shock waves that generate the next generations of star formation. The Sun is not the same age as the universe. I don't think one broad definition can encompass every imaginabe scenario in which coal might be formed. Obviously bugs can not, or do not eat every bit of biomatter that the earth produces, or there would be no fertilizer, or coal, or oil, or diamonds, or any of the forms of decayed carbon with which you are familiar. I doubt once the magnetic field reverses that it just dies. It probably just has a cyclical nature because of the natural decay in the system. Remember, it's likely that the magnetic field will eventually die as the fluid core of the earth slowly becomes smaller as the earth cools. Eventually, the earth might even lose it's magnetic field entirely.

You forget my previous post in which I asked, "Do we agree that the earth and the rest of the universe came into existence at the same time?" to which someone replied "I'm willing to pretend so to hear a non-biblical argument."

And, if they didn't come into existence at the same time, why not? What caused the earth just to pop up into our galaxy? Is it just chance that it is the perfect distance from the sun? Or that it happens to orbit? The fact that it is round? The notion of gravity?

And yes, I agree about what you say about the magnetic field, and this rate it will likely diminish by the year 3391.

[Jack]

What caused the earth just to pop up into our galaxy?

Just pop? What are you referencing?

Is it just chance that it is the perfect distance from the sun?

Perfect for what? If you mean life, it only happened because of the conditions already present. The conditions weren't created to fit life. Yes, life is a coincidence.

Or that it happens to orbit? The fact that it is round? The notion of gravity?

Gravity might be a notion to you, for me it's a fact of life, and it explains both the shape of planets and their rotation around a sun.

[RickSp]

Quote by: TehNinja You forget my previous post in which I asked, "Do we agree that the earth and the rest of the universe came into existence at the same time?" to which someone replied "I'm willing to pretend so to hear a non-biblical argument." And, if they didn't come into existence at the same time, why not? What caused the earth just to pop up into our galaxy? Is it just chance that it is the perfect distance from the sun? Or that it happens to orbit? The fact that it is round? The notion of gravity? And yes, I agree about what you say about the magnetic field, and this rate it will likely diminish by the year 3391.

Why would the earth "pop into our galaxy"? Why wouldn't it be formed through natural processes? Why wouldn't the earth rotate at "the perfect distance from the sun?" If it didn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?. Why wouldn't objects orbit? It seems to be part of the basic physics. All indications are that the solar system is about 4.5 billion years old and that the universe istlef is slightly more than twice as old.

So far you have thrown out a lot of unsupported assertions and haven't responded to any of the criticism. Did you look at all at the links discussing the age of the earth and/or the fallacy of all the Young Earther claims?

[TehNinja]

Quote by: Isherwood Just pop? What are you referencing? Perfect for what? If you mean life, it only happened because of the conditions already present. The conditions weren't created to fit life. Yes, life is a coincidence. Gravity might be a notion to you, for me it's a fact of life, and it explains both the shape of planets and their rotation around a sun.

They said that the earth did not come into existance at the same time as the rest of the universe, thus, something had to come first. So, what did?

"Life is a coincidence" Listen to yourself. Just random? How do you explain feeling, emotions, love, jealousy, etc. the immaterial things. Are they just illusions created by our minds? Reproduction, did it just happen randomly that we (Man and Woman) were made so perfectly for each other? That we love, have compassion, have feelings? Did it just happen randomly that it was in fact a universe that was made? Why not just an earth? Or life just floating in space? That the best possible location, size, and elements just fit together perfectly to form our solar system? That EVERYTHING that is, that exists, came to be in the perfect order, size and location?

[TehNinja]

Quote by: RickSp Why would the earth "pop into our galaxy"? Why wouldn't it be formed through natural processes? Why wouldn't the earth rotate at "the perfect distance from the sun?" If it didn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?. Why wouldn't objects orbit? It seems to be part of the basic physics. All indications are that the solar system is about 4.5 billion years old and that the universe istlef is slightly more than twice as old. So far you have thrown out a lot of unsupported assertions and haven't responded to any of the criticism. Did you look at all at the links discussing the age of the earth and/or the fallacy of all the Young Earther claims?

Why do physics even exist, if everything is random? Why do we even have gravity? To hold planets together, of course everyone knows that. Again, why does gravity exist if everything is random? Why would the earth come into existance the perfect distance from the sun, the perfect size, shape and so on, is everything is random? why?

[Jack]

It's difficult to explain science to someone so unaware of even the basic concepts. That's what school is for, not a debate forum.

[TehNinja]

You don't have to explain science, just why science even exists. Why does it? If everything is random. What caused the creation of physics? If I understand correctly, it is what holds this very planet together. If everything is random, why did physics even come into existance?

[Jack]

Random simply means without a plan, a series of unrelated occurances. I think you're confusing random with chaotic. Chaos is a whole other thing.

[Matt W]

Quote by: TehNinja You don't have to explain science, just why science even exists.

So you want to turn this into a standard Atheism vs Religion debate? I really don't think so. Focus, please.

[Jack]

What caused the creation of physics?

Physics is what we call the underlying properties of reality. Think of them as rules. They weren't created. We are slowly discovering what they are.

I don't know, MattW, but it seems more a "religious beliefs vs. education" redirection to me.

[TehNinja]

Yes, why do we even have rule though? If everything just happens randomly, by chance. Why did physics happen, by chance?

[Jack]

Read a book, go to school, take notes. I'm not going to be baited further. I'm not here to educate you.

[TehNinja]

So, you give up? You're not going to play my game? Not going to defend your beliefs?

[Matt W]

Quote by: TehNinja So, you give up? You're not going to play my game? Not going to defend your beliefs?

If you had any specific argument rather than 'why?', this might've been a worthwhile debate. As it is, this is pointless. You really need to learn a bit more about how things work round here. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

Here's a summery of what I believe. Read it online and save me having to copy/paste it for you.
How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments

[xyzer]

First, do we agree that the universe and our planet came into existance at the same time?

No! I don't agree our planet in its current configuration came into existence at the same time! The material that comprises the earth may have been available at the time it all started.
What the hecks the difference?

[shrike]

Quote by: TehNinja Do you believe in a new earth or an old earth? I personally believe in a new earth.

I don't believe. I know because there is overwhelming evidence

[RickSp]

Why do physics even exist, if everything is random? Why do we even have gravity? To hold planets together, of course everyone knows that. Again, why does gravity exist if everything is random? Why would the earth come into existance the perfect distance from the sun, the perfect size, shape and so on, is everything is random? why?

Where do you come up with this stuff. Who says that everything is random? No one argues that.

Even many Christian Bible literalists do not support Young Earth silliness.

Is There Really Scientific Evidence for a Young Earth?

It is not the purpose of this paper to discuss theology, but this author firmly believes that the Bible is the literal and inerrant Word of God, and that a literal interpretation of Genesis allows for the Old-Earth Creationist view. I say this only to emphasize that this paper is not intended to oppose any Christian beliefs, or to tear down anyone's faith. Rather, the purpose of this paper is to ensure that our Faith is based firmly on Truth, and not merely wishful thinking. Through the ages, many people have denied certain facts of nature because those facts did not fit into the belief system that they desired to hold to. Both Christians and atheists are commonly guilty of this error. It should be obvious that any Christian who believes that God is the ordainer and framer of this world, and that God is the initiator of all logic and scientific thought, should never take such a position. The purpose of this paper is to show that Young-Earth Creationists, however unintentionally, have in fact done this. Regardless of what we may think the Bible says, the facts of nature are also ordained by God, and it is not right deny them or to misrepresent them in order to support any particular belief system. The purpose of this paper is to set forth the facts of nature in light of the claims made by Young-Earth Creationist leaders in hope that, by better understanding the facts of nature, we will also come to a better understanding of God's greater source of revelation - the words of the Bible.

He goes on to refute many of the "Young Earth" claims that you have posted including the "shrinking sun" and "magnetic field." as well as many other Young Earth claims that you haven't mentioned.

[gallo]

Quote by: Compugasm Then you'd think he could have done a better job with the avacado. The damn pit is too big.

But evolution did a pretty good job of designing a large tasty fruit with nutritious pulp that is just about right to be swallowed by a gomphothere. Thus there was a partnership wherein the avocado supplied tasty, nutritious food for gomphotheres, and the gomphotheres dispersed avocado seeds in a mound of rich fertilizer. If it were not for the fact that humans also like to eat avocados and propagate them artificially, they would be in danger of extinction. Such seeds are known as anachronisms, perfectly adapted to be propagated by a partner that no longer exists.

Funny how creationism and ID have a problem with such things while they are perfectly reasonable when considered from an evolutionary standpoint.

More information about this topic:

Barlow, Connie. The Ghosts of Evolution: Nonsensical Fruit, Missing Partners, and Other Ecological Anachronisms. 2000. Basic Books, New York. 291 pp. ISBN 0465005527