Aliens among us AKA: Fun with anal probes

[Captain Chaos]

So, there is a lot of crazy stuff out there about alien abductions. I chalk this up with religious hysteria.

That does not mean there is no truth to it, but if there is any truth to it, I have yet to see anything that convinces me.


So, that said...

Why don't we have contact with aliens? I mean, given the age and size of the universe, why haven't we had any contact with alien intelligence?

This is known as the Fermi Paradox, by the way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox


My personal guess is the prime directive (from Star Trek). They are out there, and in some way aware of our existence, but don't want to intervene.

[The Second Law]

A few thousand years is an awfully small amount of time to have noted a visit, especially considering how it would take manymany years for any sort of signal to be sent to Earth and back, and even longer for someone else to get here, and considering how we've only had a few decades to even consider sending a message into space or receiving one of theirs here.

Basically, we could have been visited already, but before humans were populous. The amount of time that we've had the capability to note these things or even facilitate them is far too small to consider a visit from intelligent life that exists elsewhere in the universe.

It's no mystery to me.

--Second

[Captain Chaos]

So then, you are saying that we are just too young to have been noticed?

[The Second Law]

Mostly, yeah, and I was even careful to consider the possibility of a superior race that can do technically-possible-but-physically-improbable things like travel near the speed of light.

If you assume the aliens to be more like humans, we'd be even less likely to be noticed.

--Second

[Captain Chaos]

I should start a thread about the light-speed barrier.

In my ignorance, I disagee with claims by physicists that superluminal signals, or superluminal travel, would inevitiable lead to time-travel or time-trave-like effects.

[The Second Law]

That's fair, as any consideration at all of what happens past the speed of light is entirely speculation.

But, uh, what does that have to do with this discussion?

--Second

[Captain Chaos]

Well...

If aliens can zoom about at superluminal speeds - like by creating wormholes with exotic matter or something - then they can get here and observe us - and all life-bearing planets, as often as they want. It would increase the probability that the Zoo Hypothesis is correct.

On the other hand, if the light-speed barrier is truly impassible, then maybe aliens are not aware of us because it is physically impossible for them to be so.

[Autolykos]

It's not all that difficult (from a theoretical perspective) to get very close to the speed of light. On the other hand, it's another matter entirely to circumvent it.

I imagine that any other intelligent species that can circumvent the "light barrier" (if it can be done at all) will be so far ahead of us in every other way as to render communication nearly meaningless. Their motivations (among other things) would be practically incomprehensible to us.

Relativistic civilizations are the ones to worry about. Especially if they are nearby. It could be that they aren't here yet, but they're on their way soon. And they wouldn't be bringing a peace offering.

- Rob

[The Second Law]

Ah, okay, I see.

I'm certainly on board with the "other hand", though, and that's where my explanations come from.

--Second

[Autolykos]

If it is truly impossible to get around Einstein's speed limit, full stop, then there are three possibilities:

1. There are no other intelligent species within ~40 light-years of Sol.
2. There is at least one intelligent species within that range, but it is unable to detect us with its present technology.
3. We will be hearing from someone soon (and may not be here much longer).

- Rob

[Captain Chaos]

Don't forget option 4...

They are here now, but well hidden, and abduct us occassionally in order to probe our butts.

[The Second Law]

@Auto: Regarding #1, why forty light years? Where did that number come from?

@Captain: That's actually a pretty decent hypothesis; it seems that they're even trying to get rights to marry here!

--Second

[Captain Chaos]

Well...

I don't mind if they want marriage rights - as long as they are citizens and all. I believe the government is here to serve the people - if these aliens want to get married and they become citizens, government will just have to figure out how to make that work.

I just wanna know if we have to pay for the anal probes, or if that comes free.

[RickSp]

I've never crossed paths with these alien folks. Pity, that anal probe thing could be fun.

[Kuroko]

"Idiots" -Vagetta, DBZ

Yes I just did a cartoon quote.. because he means it.

First, light speed.. even Einstein was stupid on this one, or perhaps he wasn't.. is another thread being made on the speed of light?

Next, we are the only intelligent life (that we know about) on this planet... this is the only planet capable (that we know of) of supporting intelligent life in this solar system.. which is the only solar system that we know with a planet capable of supporting intelligent life, and the milky way is the only gallaxy that we are aware of..

However, we know that intelligent life DOES exist, and even given the odds of this gallaxy or even this universe, there still stands a very good chance at life beyond our own.

To bet agaisnt those odds.. I'd have to be insane.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: The Second Law @Auto: Regarding #1, why forty light years? Where did that number come from? --Second

There is at least a fourty light year radius of space around us contaminated with our radio, and television broadcasts polluting all of the airwaves within that envelope.


That would probably be rather annoying to any civilization trying to develop similar technologies in an already over contaminated environment. ( Remember, we had the benfit of only being able to recieve signals broadcast locally. A luxury that disappears once you leave the comfort of the atmosphere. ( Which reflects the signal back to us in most cases. ) )

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Milton Bradley There is at least a fourty light year radius of space around us contaminated with our radio, and television broadcasts polluting all of the airwaves within that envelope. That would probably be rather annoying to any civilization trying to develop similar technologies in an already over contaminated environment. ( Remember, we had the benfit of only being able to recieve signals broadcast locally. A luxury that disappears once you leave the comfort of the atmosphere. ( Which reflects the signal back to us in most cases. ) )

No way. Those signals are weak weak weak by the time they get even to the nearest star. They would sound like noise, unless someone was pointing a HUGE radio telescope right at Earth.

[The Second Law]

Quote by: Milton Bradley There is at least a fourty light year radius of space around us contaminated with our radio, and television broadcasts polluting all of the airwaves within that envelope.

This is what I figured he meant, but I asked because with a forty light year radius, it would take any signal eighty years to go from one planet to the other and then get back.

--Second

[Autolykos]

Quote by: The Second Law @Auto: Regarding #1, why forty light years? Where did that number come from?

The first radio transmission was made by Marconi in 1901. Radio was not widely used, however, until after 1920, when the first commercial radio station (KDKA) was opened in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

I'm assuming that an advanced civilization would be able to detect signals broadcast from 1920 onwards (at the most). The wavefront of Earth's manmade radio broadcasts, from that point on, form a sphere about 86 light-years in radius and expanding outward at the speed of light. So a sufficiently advanced species would have to be within that area of space in order to detect any signals from Earth.

Now, let's assume that there is such a species at the edge of that sphere. They have begun to intercept our radio broadcasts. If they cannot exceed the speed of light, then any reply of theirs would take at least ~86 years to get here. (By "reply" I mean either a return signal or a spacecraft.) As a result, we would not hear from them until around 2092 at the earliest.

On the other hand, let's say that these hypothetical aliens live about half of that distance away, around 43 light-years from Earth. Their reply, then, would take at least 43 years to get here. But also they would have started detecting our broadcasts 43 years ago, in 1963. If they have sent a reply, we should be receiving it any day now. The fact that we have not means that they're not that close or they lack the ability to detect us.

- Rob

[brien]

Quote by: Autolykos The first radio transmission was made by Marconi in 1901. Radio was not widely used, however, until after 1920, when the first commercial radio station (KDKA) was opened in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I'm assuming that an advanced civilization would be able to detect signals broadcast from 1920 onwards (at the most). The wavefront of Earth's manmade radio broadcasts, from that point on, form a sphere about 86 light-years in radius and expanding outward at the speed of light. So a sufficiently advanced species would have to be within that area of space in order to detect any signals from Earth. Now, let's assume that there is such a species at the edge of that sphere. They have begun to intercept our radio broadcasts. If they cannot exceed the speed of light, then any reply of theirs would take at least ~86 years to get here. (By "reply" I mean either a return signal or a spacecraft.) As a result, we would not hear from them until around 2092 at the earliest. On the other hand, let's say that these hypothetical aliens live about half of that distance away, around 43 light-years from Earth. Their reply, then, would take at least 43 years to get here. But also they would have started detecting our broadcasts 43 years ago, in 1963. If they have sent a reply, we should be receiving it any day now. The fact that we have not means that they're not that close or they lack the ability to detect us. - Rob

Why do we assume that another species must travel at 186,000 miles per second? Perhaps other species have their own mode of travel and it is measured in ways we don't even know yet. Perhaps they travel in ways we don't even understand yet. Earth is in its infancy according to the time scale of the Universe and Big Bang of 4.5 billion years ago. Why should we trust infants to instruct us on the mysteries of the Universe?

Those who pretend to know that there is no chance for alien visitation remind me of those who insisted the world was flat.