Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Section 8 · Sep 28, 2003, 01:43 pm

Well I believe that it's about time we have a cloning thread. Personally I'm all for it. It's the natural evolution of science, and further allows scientists to save lives from diseases that before were "uncurable." Recently researchers have succeeded in cloning a rat. http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/Scie.../Rat+cloned.htm
Brazil also "made" a new cow from a dead cows cells.
http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News...dead+cattle.htm

Have Fun
Shalom

einned · Sep 28, 2003, 02:21 pm

Cloning is something which can't be looked at as if we could stop it right now because it's unethical. The scientist who are doing cloning experiments can't forget all that they have learned so far.
We must just have a general discussion on the boundaries we would like to set as society. The task for the politicians is to have a good look in the whole matter and just let the benefits also have a say in their opinion and not only let the fear speak that I guess we all have a little bit in the back of our mind about possible consequences for the future.
In some cases cloning is a good thing (the research they do with stem cells for example) but we do also have to see that cloning can be done but the outcome of the experiments is still very uncertain. I read an article in a newspaper a while ago where three healthy (until then) piglets all died at the same day from heart failures. The pig from which they where cloned doesn't have any heart problems.
so I think it has it's advantages but boundaries must be set for the scientist to work within in those restrictions.

**Pooeypants** · Sep 28, 2003, 03:37 pm

Just a few minor hitches in the process. We must remember that what can be done will eventually be done. As a biologist I see no reason why shouldn't research cloning but how we implement it is another matter.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 28, 2003, 05:50 pm

Pig organ donors would be a nice tool...

xm.bretton · Sep 28, 2003, 07:57 pm

as soon as something beings to live, who decides when it stops.

it might not have a meaningful life by some of your standards early on in its creation, but if it isnt prevented, it will become a person. like you or me.

Sodfather · Sep 28, 2003, 09:22 pm

I believe that we should most definitely look into cloning - we should research it as far as it will go, including a successful clone of a human, but who says it has to go any further than that? Sure, if cloning was available to the public it would be chaos - you'd have people walking around trying to fake identities and so on: but who said that the process would be available to the public anyhow? And don't even start up that, "God is the one and only creator," bullcrap because (1) His existence has yet to be proven, and this is a science forum. (2) If he didn't want us to clone, why would he provide us with teh ideas and intellect to do so? It doesn't make sense.

Basically, I believe that if anything can be done to advance our scientific knowledge it should be done - not to mention the predicted possibilities of using stem cells (you know, those cells we start out with as growing organisms that can adapt to whatever type of cell is in need - they might be useful, huh? :P).

Section 8 · Sep 29, 2003, 12:11 am

So true sodfather. Imagine all the lives we could save. We might even be able to cure mental retardation. The possibilities are limitless. To bad some conservatives high in power don't believe in helping to save lives.

Have Fun
Shalom

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 2, 2003, 12:54 am

Sorry, but conservative and religious right, although there is overlap, are not the same thing. When you toss people into a catagory it is your own damn fault when they oppose you as a group. Treat them as individuals and you still have the power to change them as individuals. Treat them as opponents and it is in their self-interest to band together for protection. People thinking like you are is exactly why they are banded together, so do not blame them for a situation you created.

Since, according to the political compass topic, this forum is very slanted to the left, I am considered a conservative here. But I happen to believe in cloning, we just need to set some ground rules to keep it under some control. I do not want moron labor grown in a tank, or super soldiers. I want the entire human race to be slowly improved by what we learn. Something like Heinleins Beyond this Horizen.

Section 8 · Oct 2, 2003, 12:59 am

GWB, I'm just saying that in general conservatives are more towards no cloning. If someone opposes my views then I take their personal beliefs into account, buy when I'm posting, I will use generalizations for political divisions only. Things such as race and culture shouldn't be generalized.

People aren't expendable, government is
Shalom

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 2, 2003, 01:15 am

But it is an incorrect assumption, I have been attacked as often by the left for proposing cloning as by the left. Being toward the center myself, I post on both types of boards. I even moderate a 'right wing' board where almost nobody has a problem with cloning. Are you sure you are not making unfair assumptions?

**Pooeypants** · Oct 2, 2003, 08:46 am

Doesn't matter who opposes it, eventually what can be done will be done. Society will adapt as usual.

Section 8 · Oct 2, 2003, 11:08 am

When I say conservative I usually mean the big right-wingers. Your beliefs are in the middle. I have no idea why they are considered conservative. (I guess this is a much more left board, so you might be considered right wing) I don't see most of your opinions as conservative.

G. Adams · Oct 3, 2003, 07:09 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Sodfather@09-28-2003 09:22 PM
Basically, I believe that if anything can be done to advance our scientific knowledge it should be done

We know how to create singularities now, and have created brief, unstable ones. Would you suggest creating one just because we can?

Section 8 · Oct 3, 2003, 10:45 am

I think that he meant when they have cloning to the point of near perfection.

Dislogic · Oct 3, 2003, 03:33 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by G. Adams@10-03-2003 07:09 AM
We know how to create singularities now, and have created brief, unstable ones. Would you suggest creating one just because we can?

how would this advance our scientific knowledge if we already know what will happen... Also are you referring to human clones? because no one has ever cloned or attempted to clone a human, therefore we really dont know what would happen...

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 3, 2003, 07:43 pm

I think it would be a little naive to assume that humans have not been cloned. Maybe not successfully yet, but I would bet everything I will ever own that it has been attempted somewhere...more than once.

Fallen Angel · Oct 4, 2003, 02:05 am

Does a clone have a soul?
Is that duplicated as well, besides having no father or mother or brothers and sisters, or any real ancestory at all, do you think a clone would be grateful to its creators, I think it would loathe them.

G. Adams · Oct 4, 2003, 04:57 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dislogic@10-03-2003 03:33 PM
how would this advance our scientific knowledge if we already know what will happen... Also are you referring to human clones? because no one has ever cloned or attempted to clone a human, therefore we really dont know what would happen...

Err, singularities are not clones. They're black holes. And yes, it will advance our knowledge, you'll get to see if there is something on the other side of it.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 4, 2003, 05:19 pm

I find the concept that the right is usually religious to be rather odd for the following reasons:
1) Minorities make up 30% of the population, they are twice as likely to belong to organinzed religion, and are eight times as likely to vote for the left.
2) I will have to assume that the ratio between the left and right is 40/60, since if the left has a larger following than the right, your statement automaticly fails for reasons that should be obvious. And if the left had a smaller percentage it would be difficult to explain how they have any elected leaders.
3) Using the numbers above...
a) at least 1/3 of the right does not belong to organized religion, assuming that 0% of the left does which is ridiculous. Therefore it is likely that only slightly over half of the right belongs to organized religion, not counting minorities.

Therefore the number of the Right that are religious enough for religion to be the cause of their rejection of cloning is not the overwelming number you appear to claim it is...

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 4, 2003, 05:22 pm

Fallen Angel
I do believe that the religious ramifications on the existence or non-existence of cloned people is a relatively unimportant detail. Also, if a clone has no soul, does a premature baby have one? Same arguement, answer one and you answer both.

Sep 28, 2003, 02:21 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
einned Sedimentary Rock Location: The Netherlands Posts: 24	Cloning is something which can't be looked at as if we could stop it right now because it's unethical. The scientist who are doing cloning experiments can't forget all that they have learned so far. We must just have a general discussion on the boundaries we would like to set as society. The task for the politicians is to have a good look in the whole matter and just let the benefits also have a say in their opinion and not only let the fear speak that I guess we all have a little bit in the back of our mind about possible consequences for the future. In some cases cloning is a good thing (the research they do with stem cells for example) but we do also have to see that cloning can be done but the outcome of the experiments is still very uncertain. I read an article in a newspaper a while ago where three healthy (until then) piglets all died at the same day from heart failures. The pig from which they where cloned doesn't have any heart problems. so I think it has it's advantages but boundaries must be set for the scientist to work within in those restrictions. A runner must run with dreams in his heart, not money in his pocket. Emil Zatopek

Sep 28, 2003, 03:37 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	Just a few minor hitches in the process. We must remember that what can be done will eventually be done. As a biologist I see no reason why shouldn't research cloning but how we implement it is another matter. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Sep 28, 2003, 05:50 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Pig organ donors would be a nice tool... . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 28, 2003, 07:57 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
xm.bretton Molten Ash Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 89	as soon as something beings to live, who decides when it stops. it might not have a meaningful life by some of your standards early on in its creation, but if it isnt prevented, it will become a person. like you or me. xm.bretton xhalation.com

Oct 2, 2003, 12:54 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Sorry, but conservative and religious right, although there is overlap, are not the same thing. When you toss people into a catagory it is your own damn fault when they oppose you as a group. Treat them as individuals and you still have the power to change them as individuals. Treat them as opponents and it is in their self-interest to band together for protection. People thinking like you are is exactly why they are banded together, so do not blame them for a situation you created. Since, according to the political compass topic, this forum is very slanted to the left, I am considered a conservative here. But I happen to believe in cloning, we just need to set some ground rules to keep it under some control. I do not want moron labor grown in a tank, or super soldiers. I want the entire human race to be slowly improved by what we learn. Something like Heinleins Beyond this Horizen. Logical Fallicies Link

Sep 28, 2003, 01:43 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Well I believe that it's about time we have a cloning thread. Personally I'm all for it. It's the natural evolution of science, and further allows scientists to save lives from diseases that before were "uncurable." Recently researchers have succeeded in cloning a rat. http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/Scie.../Rat+cloned.htm Brazil also "made" a new cow from a dead cows cells. http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News...dead+cattle.htm Have Fun Shalom

Sep 28, 2003, 09:22 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	I believe that we should most definitely look into cloning - we should research it as far as it will go, including a successful clone of a human, but who says it has to go any further than that? Sure, if cloning was available to the public it would be chaos - you'd have people walking around trying to fake identities and so on: but who said that the process would be available to the public anyhow? And don't even start up that, "God is the one and only creator," bullcrap because (1) His existence has yet to be proven, and this is a science forum. (2) If he didn't want us to clone, why would he provide us with teh ideas and intellect to do so? It doesn't make sense. Basically, I believe that if anything can be done to advance our scientific knowledge it should be done - not to mention the predicted possibilities of using stem cells (you know, those cells we start out with as growing organisms that can adapt to whatever type of cell is in need - they might be useful, huh? :P).

Sep 29, 2003, 12:11 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	So true sodfather. Imagine all the lives we could save. We might even be able to cure mental retardation. The possibilities are limitless. To bad some conservatives high in power don't believe in helping to save lives. Have Fun Shalom

Oct 2, 2003, 12:59 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	GWB, I'm just saying that in general conservatives are more towards no cloning. If someone opposes my views then I take their personal beliefs into account, buy when I'm posting, I will use generalizations for political divisions only. Things such as race and culture shouldn't be generalized. People aren't expendable, government is Shalom

Oct 2, 2003, 01:15 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	But it is an incorrect assumption, I have been attacked as often by the left for proposing cloning as by the left. Being toward the center myself, I post on both types of boards. I even moderate a 'right wing' board where almost nobody has a problem with cloning. Are you sure you are not making unfair assumptions?

Oct 2, 2003, 08:46 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,467	Doesn't matter who opposes it, eventually what can be done will be done. Society will adapt as usual. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Oct 2, 2003, 11:08 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	When I say conservative I usually mean the big right-wingers. Your beliefs are in the middle. I have no idea why they are considered conservative. (I guess this is a much more left board, so you might be considered right wing) I don't see most of your opinions as conservative.

Oct 3, 2003, 10:45 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I think that he meant when they have cloning to the point of near perfection.

Oct 3, 2003, 07:43 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	I think it would be a little naive to assume that humans have not been cloned. Maybe not successfully yet, but I would bet everything I will ever own that it has been attempted somewhere...more than once. Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 4, 2003, 02:05 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Does a clone have a soul? Is that duplicated as well, besides having no father or mother or brothers and sisters, or any real ancestory at all, do you think a clone would be grateful to its creators, I think it would loathe them.

Oct 4, 2003, 05:19 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	I find the concept that the right is usually religious to be rather odd for the following reasons: 1) Minorities make up 30% of the population, they are twice as likely to belong to organinzed religion, and are eight times as likely to vote for the left. 2) I will have to assume that the ratio between the left and right is 40/60, since if the left has a larger following than the right, your statement automaticly fails for reasons that should be obvious. And if the left had a smaller percentage it would be difficult to explain how they have any elected leaders. 3) Using the numbers above... a) at least 1/3 of the right does not belong to organized religion, assuming that 0% of the left does which is ridiculous. Therefore it is likely that only slightly over half of the right belongs to organized religion, not counting minorities. Therefore the number of the Right that are religious enough for religion to be the cause of their rejection of cloning is not the overwelming number you appear to claim it is... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 4, 2003, 05:22 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Fallen Angel I do believe that the religious ramifications on the existence or non-existence of cloned people is a relatively unimportant detail. Also, if a clone has no soul, does a premature baby have one? Same arguement, answer one and you answer both.