Human Cloning

[Pooeypants]

ooo, why don't we fertilise every egg that has ever been produced and grow them to adulthood? I mean sure we'd use up all the available resources in the world but we have to safe every precious egg and sperm (well mainly eggs as sperm are expendable :|).
So is that what you guys want?

[tnphydeaux]

How long have you had these stinking red herrings hanging about your neck. Free yourself from such irrationa posts. Cannibalizing human lives is not a good thing, pants. If you cannot understand the big difference between organism and subunits of organs, you may be doomed to the smell of red herring all your life! Try to find out what is the difference.

[Pooeypants]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tnphydeaux,)
How long have you had these stinking red herrings hanging about your neck. Free yourself from such irrationa posts. Cannibalizing human lives is not a good thing, pants. If you cannot understand the big difference between organism and subunits of organs, you may be doomed to the smell of red herring all your life! Try to find out what is the difference.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I see no problems in using what is just a ball of cells to research cures for disease that affect millions (Alzhemers (sp?) and Parkinson etc), perhaps one day you'd develop said disease, will you just let it take hold of you and make you end your life miserably? Well perhaps you do but the need of the many outweighs the need of the few. Perhaps if ppl like you can see that then our species won't be so doomed.

[tnphydeaux]

Poopoo offered, I see no problems in using what is just a ball of cells ... It is easy to dehumanize that which you wish to cannibalize, isn't. In reality, that ball of cells, as you euphemistically call the individual life, is the earliest age along a lifetime of an individual human being, else no one would kill the organism and harvest its body parts or test it for genetic factors at that age in his or her individual life. BTW, you are merely a ball of cells, from some perspective. Do you also need an assist in understanding the difference in organism and the subunits of organism?

[Pooeypants]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tnphydeaux,)
Poopoo offered, I see no problems in using what is just a ball of cells ... It is easy to dehumanize that which you wish to cannibalize, isn't. In reality, that ball of cells, as you euphemistically call the individual life, is the earliest age along a lifetime of an individual human being, else no one would kill the organism and harvest its body parts or test it for genetic factors at that age in his or her individual life. BTW, you are merely a ball of cells, from some perspective. Do you also need an assist in understanding the difference in organism and the subunits of organism?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
hmm, you know when you're having sex with your partner? Let's say you use a condom...will you throw away that sperm or do you keep it safe and protected till whenever? I mean, it's just one step away from fusing with an egg and becoming a zygote...

Honestly, I ask you again, if you were suffering from Parkinsons/Alcheizmers and the cure lies with researching using stem cells...would you still deny their use? I'm sure you'd say yes now, well if you want to die horribly thats your choice but don't try to stop other ppl from getting their cure. Perhaps one day you'd see past your own selfishness and work for the better of mankind.

[Impenitent]

all hail Monty Python

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

[G. Adams]

Now you've done. If we have one Monty Python Song we gotta have em all. So, without further ado, I present

The Penis Song (see there is a connection in there somewhere between cloning and monty python songs)

Isn't it awfully nice, to have a penis?
Isn't it frightfully good to have a dong?
It's swell to have a stiffy.
It's divine to own a dick,
From the tiniest little tadger
To the world's biggest prick.
So, three cheers for your Willy or John Thomas.
Hooray for your one-eyed trouser snake,
Your piece of pork, your wife's best friend,
Your Percy, or your cock.
You can wrap it up in ribbons.
You can slip it in your sock,
But don't take it out in public,
Or they will stick you in the dock,
And you won't come back

[tnphydeaux]

Pooey wrote, "hmm, you know when you're having sex with your partner? Let's say you use a condom...will you throw away that sperm or do you keep it safe and protected till whenever? I mean, it's just one step away from fusing with an egg and becoming a zygote..." Sperm are sub-units of organs called testes. The zygote is an organism, which is far more than a sub-unit. I'm sorry you have trouble with that differentiation, but your sarcasm doesn't cover the ignorance.

Pooey wrote, "Honestly, I ask you again, if you were suffering from Parkinsons/Alcheizmers and the cure lies with researching using stem cells...would you still deny their use? I'm sure you'd say yes now, well if you want to die horribly thats your choice but don't try to stop other ppl from getting their cure. Perhaps one day you'd see past your own selfishness and work for the better of mankind." If the stem cells were taken from my body, manipulated to produce the dopamone producing cells needed for my brain, then re-insert into my brain, I'd be happy as a clam to participate. If, on the other hand, the stem cells had to be plundered from another living individual human life (cannibalized), no, I would just as soon forego the experience. You have yet to comprehend the notion of cannibalizing because you've arbitrarily chosen to view the embryonic age of the human individual lifetime as a part of an individual's life. Like I said, it's easy to cannibalize what you first dehumanize. {Incidentally, why do you suppose the genetic tests done to embryos are very precise data recovery to tell physicians what diseases will occur to that individual human life later along the continuum of that individual's lifetime? I know, it's hard to parse that one ... but I'm sure you'll try some dissemblement to tide you over in your dehumanization quest.}

[Pooeypants]

*sigh* You just keep thinking like a luddite. Although I never thought I'd say this, I wish you will develop Parkinsons in your near future. Enjoy.

[tnphydeaux]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
Although I never thought I'd say this, I wish you will develop Parkinsons in your near future. Enjoy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Written like a true liberal democrat. Such compassion, such self control ... so very exposed for all the world to see!

[Pooeypants]

err, I don't even know what a liberal is but all I know is that I hope selfish ppl like you don't stop good being done for mankind.

[tnphydeaux]

Here's a little quote from a scientist, to help you expand your horizons:



During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced.

To understand this, it should be remembered that each kind of living organism has a specific number and quality of chromosomes that are characteristic for each member of a species. (The number can vary only slightly if the organism is to survive.) For example, the characteristic number of chromosomes for a member of the human species is 46 (plus or minus, e.g., in human beings with Down's or Turner's syndromes). Every somatic (or, body) cell in a human being has this characteristic number of chromosomes. Even the early germ cells contain 46 chromosomes; it is only their most mature forms — the sex gametes, or sperms and oocytes — which will later contain only 23 chromosomes.1 Sperms and oocytes are derived from primitive germ cells in the developing fetus by means of the process known as "gametogenesis." Because each germ cell normally has 46 chromosomes, the process of "fertilization" can not take place until the total number of chromosomes in each germ are cut in half. This is necessary so that after their fusion at fertilization the characteristic number of chromosomes in a single individual member of the human species (46) can be maintained — otherwise we would end up with a monster of some sort.

To accurately see why a sperm or an oocyte are considered as only possessing human life, and not as living human beings themselves, one needs to look at the basic scientific facts involved in the processes of gametogenesis and of fertilization. It may help to keep in mind that the products of gametogenesis and fertilization are very different. The products of gametogenesis are mature sex gametes with only 23 instead of 46 chromosomes. The product of fertilization is a living human being with 46 chromosomes. Gametogenesis refers to the maturation of germ cells resulting in gametes. Fertilization refers to the initiation of a new human being.

[When Do Human Beings Begin? By Dianne M. Irving, MA., Ph.D; copyright 1999] http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html

[Pooeypants]

I'm studying Biochemistry and Microbiology at University level, I understand those terms and what it means. But like I said, if you like ppl to suffer from Parkinsons etc for the sake of a few balls of cells...well thats just you.

[tnphydeaux]

Apply your education to answer the following question, please: When does the lifetime of an individual human being begin?

[fedfem]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tnphydeaux,)
Apply your education to answer the following question, please: When does the lifetime of an individual human being begin?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


The lifetime of a human being begins at birth.

[tnphydeaux]

Well, fedfem, it is no secret where your heart stands ... all the genetic tests done to fetuses and embryos, all the fetal in utero surgeries done to unborn alive babies to repare spinal defects (for instance, like little Samuel Armas), all those truth, all those facts are to be ignored by your ilk. The tests and surgeries were done to non-humans in your perspective. Would you like to offer proof of your astonishing assertion? ... No, I didn't hink so, but you'll probably speciously try to substitute the term 'person' or 'citizen' for human being. Okay ... next.

[fedfem]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tnphydeaux,)
Well, fedfem, it is no secret where your heart stands ... all the genetic tests done to fetuses and embryos, all the fetal in utero surgeries done to unborn alive babies to repare spinal defects (for instance, like little Samuel Armas), all those truth, all those facts are to be ignored by your ilk. The tests and surgeries were done to non-humans in your perspective. Would you like to offer proof of your astonishing assertion? ... No, I didn't hink so, but you'll probably speciously try to substitute the term 'person' or 'citizen' for human being. Okay ... next.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


I have no idea who my "ilk" are and you surely do not know where my heart stands.

You asked about a lifetime. My legal lifetime and yours, began at birth.

[tnphydeaux]

Spinning, spinning, spinning. And you're actually wrong, in legal terms.


You may want to believe that the preborn are not human beings, that their lifetime doesn't begin until live birth and full separation from the woman's body, umbilicus and all, but you'd be wrong when confronting fetal homicide laws ... and there are reams of legal cases where a woman is prosecuted for harming the alive unborn child, or a pharmaceutical company loses a suit over their medication harming an alive unborn child. But you keep right on spinning because the spectacle is educational for readers when the fallacious nature of your arguments is exposed.

[G. Adams]

For me human life begins at viability, around 26 weeks ( i think that earliest viability). Its still fairly arbitrary for me to pick this, its just a date really, as all lives a viable at different points.

Its not consistent with my other principles, namely that for once I'll compromise my belief that we should look after all human no matter their condition, because the improvements in science we can make are important ones. Most of scienctific research has just bumbled itself into making profitable improvements on what we have now, rather than making breakthroughs in key areas. It may be possible for us to eventually create the neccesary stem cells alone rather than the life with it, but we'll never hit that point if the early foundational research isn't done. So for the sake of all those hit with such crippling diseases as Parkinsons, I think sacrificing human life, because that is what it is people, theres no need to dodge this one, is worth it. Hell we've been sacrificing animals left right and centre for lesser causes, like glove trims, so I don't see how losing human life is any worse.

[tnphydeaux]

Clearly stated, and honest. I respect that ... for what my respect is worth on this forum. If We The People are to attend legislation on these issues, we will need to have honest discussions.