Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

xm.bretton · Oct 9, 2003, 09:59 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@10-04-2003 05:22 PM
Fallen Angel
I do believe that the religious ramifications on the existence or non-existence of cloned people is a relatively unimportant detail. Also, if a clone has no soul, does a premature baby have one? Same arguement, answer one and you answer both.

the bible does not support anywhere that a living person has a soul. rather it implies that living bodies are souls.

Scribbler1 · Oct 10, 2003, 01:35 am

If I might add my three cents here, as a longtime poster on similar discussion forums I have found that subjects such as cloning (abortion is another big one) always seem to deviate into religion. This is why I never discuss my own faith or lack of same. It simply clouds the issue.
As for cloning, I believe it has great potential for serious benefit for humankind. It's not simply a matter of cloning whole people, it's also about body parts and even vaccines. I believe cloning has been politicized deliberately by its opponents so those against it can control it or eliminate it entirely by branding all cloning research as an attempt at creating people. I've even heard it compared to Hitler's "master race" concept, which is a good way to demonize the whole line of research.
IMO, cloning needs to be brought into the light of day and aggressively pursued as the simple scientific tool it really is. However, having said that, it must also be just as aggressively policed to prevent the whole science from going out of control. I'm not talking master races of blue-eyed, blond-haired people here. My fear is more along the lines of putting the toothpaste back into the tube. We have to be ever watchful of the possibility of interaction with the world outside of the lab, like killer bees (I know that was cross breeding, not cloning), such as possibly cloning extinct species which may, when introduced into the modern world may have unforseen effects.

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 01:38 am

Religion is personally a topic that I much enjoy debating. Nothing is safe ground in Volconvo.

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 01:39 am

Other than that, your point seems on target. Oh and welcome to Volconvo.

tnphydeaux · Oct 10, 2003, 02:13 am

Cloning to harvest designer stem cells is cannibalism as surely as if you were instructed to eat the embryo.

Fallen Angel · Oct 10, 2003, 06:15 am

Quote:

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@10-08-2003 11:05 PM
I actually have to side with Adams on this one. I feel the same way. If there is a God what right does he have to judge me? He is the idiot that made the defective part if I fail to operate the way he wants me to. All religions seem to assume that everyone 'knows' the right choice, but we do not, it is a con game designed to shame you into pretending you feel something that is not there.

You can't blame God for your failings, they are your own and no one elses.
Why should he accept you just the way you are?
If you don't love and respect God, regardless of how good you are(in your mind),
you will not be with him.

G. Adams · Oct 10, 2003, 06:49 am

But if I am good in my mind, how can God be against me? He knows I have done nothing but that which I believe to be good. And as I am not so arrogant as to claim to know God's will and vision of good, I have only my own consciounce to lead me. And he cannot punish me for not knowing his will, as he has not revealed it to me.

Fallen Angel · Oct 10, 2003, 09:34 am

Quote:

Originally posted by G. Adams@10-10-2003 06:49 AM
But if I am good in my mind, how can God be against me? He knows I have done nothing but that which I believe to be good. And as I am not so arrogant as to claim to know God's will and vision of good, I have only my own consciounce to lead me. And he cannot punish me for not knowing his will, as he has not revealed it to me.

You are only truly good when you put everyone else, the whole world before yourself, the greatest thing you can do is to give your life to save another human being's, as Jesus said in the Gospels, 'he that is first shall be last, and he that is last shall come first'.
He has revealed this to you, in the scriptures.

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 10:24 am

FA, what if you cannot believe in Jesus. For me it seems just to much for me. That's me. Would God want me not following my consceous and believing in Jesus just because I won't go to hell.

tnphydeaux · Oct 10, 2003, 11:17 am

No longer a cloning thread I see.

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 07:25 pm

Yea sorry I go of into a tangent sometimes, but you want to bring something up about cloning go right ahead. I most likely will have an opinion.

Fallen Angel · Oct 10, 2003, 10:28 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-10-2003 10:24 AM
FA, what if you cannot believe in Jesus. For me it seems just to much for me. That's me. Would God want me not following my consceous and believing in Jesus just because I won't go to hell.

If you cannot believe in Jesus, then you must have trouble with believing his teachings, this is mainly what will damn you.
No one wants to go to hell, except the truly perverted, which you are not one of, yet..

Section 8 · Oct 11, 2003, 02:43 am

I believe in most of his teachings. Not all though. I don't however acknowledge him as my savior, just as someone who was trying to improve Judaism. Would that damn me?

Fallen Angel · Oct 11, 2003, 03:06 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-11-2003 02:43 AM
I believe in most of his teachings. Not all though. I don't however acknowledge him as my savior, just as someone who was trying to improve Judaism. Would that damn me?

Maybe.

Section 8 · Oct 11, 2003, 03:07 am

FA, you realise that Jesus was a liberal.

Fallen Angel · Oct 11, 2003, 03:23 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-11-2003 03:07 AM
FA, you realise that Jesus was a liberal.

So?

xm.bretton · Oct 11, 2003, 08:18 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-11-2003 03:07 AM
FA, you realise that Jesus was a liberal.

by the standards of his peers at that point in time you could say he was a liberal.

but being a "liberal" is very subjective. maybe to jesus everyone else were liberals.

Scribbler1 · Oct 11, 2003, 01:11 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by xm.bretton@10-11-2003 08:18 AM
by the standards of his peers at that point in time you could say he was a liberal.

[quote]

I truly wish we could replace the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" with more descriptive words. In the last ten years or so those two words have become so corrupted and vague they don't mean anything anymore. I've known too many people who describe themselves as Liberal or Conservative, yet sometimes they agree with "the other side" on certain issues, so too often the issues are clouded with labels.

Libertarian Jim

Section 8 · Oct 12, 2003, 02:28 am

When dealing with individual people it is easier to get into detail. It would get pretty dam annoying to keep thoroughly explaining peoples positions when dealing with whole groups.

tnphydeaux · Oct 15, 2003, 12:43 pm

Referring to cloning, Michael Savage did an oblique piece on cloning, focusing on the clones to be born in the future. That avoided the real issues of cloning now surfacing with an urgency, namely, cloning to conceive protein matched embryonic individual lives for use in harvesting stem cells to 'treat' maladies of older individual lives, thus killing the cloned embryos.

Oct 10, 2003, 01:35 am	#42 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	If I might add my three cents here, as a longtime poster on similar discussion forums I have found that subjects such as cloning (abortion is another big one) always seem to deviate into religion. This is why I never discuss my own faith or lack of same. It simply clouds the issue. As for cloning, I believe it has great potential for serious benefit for humankind. It's not simply a matter of cloning whole people, it's also about body parts and even vaccines. I believe cloning has been politicized deliberately by its opponents so those against it can control it or eliminate it entirely by branding all cloning research as an attempt at creating people. I've even heard it compared to Hitler's "master race" concept, which is a good way to demonize the whole line of research. IMO, cloning needs to be brought into the light of day and aggressively pursued as the simple scientific tool it really is. However, having said that, it must also be just as aggressively policed to prevent the whole science from going out of control. I'm not talking master races of blue-eyed, blond-haired people here. My fear is more along the lines of putting the toothpaste back into the tube. We have to be ever watchful of the possibility of interaction with the world outside of the lab, like killer bees (I know that was cross breeding, not cloning), such as possibly cloning extinct species which may, when introduced into the modern world may have unforseen effects. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Oct 10, 2003, 06:49 am	#47 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	But if I am good in my mind, how can God be against me? He knows I have done nothing but that which I believe to be good. And as I am not so arrogant as to claim to know God's will and vision of good, I have only my own consciounce to lead me. And he cannot punish me for not knowing his will, as he has not revealed it to me. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 10, 2003, 01:38 am	#43 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Religion is personally a topic that I much enjoy debating. Nothing is safe ground in Volconvo.

Oct 10, 2003, 01:39 am	#44 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Other than that, your point seems on target. Oh and welcome to Volconvo.

Oct 10, 2003, 02:13 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
tnphydeaux Molten Ash Posts: 63	Cloning to harvest designer stem cells is cannibalism as surely as if you were instructed to eat the embryo.

Oct 10, 2003, 10:24 am	#49 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	FA, what if you cannot believe in Jesus. For me it seems just to much for me. That's me. Would God want me not following my consceous and believing in Jesus just because I won't go to hell.

Oct 10, 2003, 11:17 am	#50 (permalink) (top)
tnphydeaux Molten Ash Posts: 63	No longer a cloning thread I see.

Oct 10, 2003, 07:25 pm	#51 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Yea sorry I go of into a tangent sometimes, but you want to bring something up about cloning go right ahead. I most likely will have an opinion.

Oct 11, 2003, 02:43 am	#53 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I believe in most of his teachings. Not all though. I don't however acknowledge him as my savior, just as someone who was trying to improve Judaism. Would that damn me?

Oct 11, 2003, 03:07 am	#55 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	FA, you realise that Jesus was a liberal.

Oct 12, 2003, 02:28 am	#59 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	When dealing with individual people it is easier to get into detail. It would get pretty dam annoying to keep thoroughly explaining peoples positions when dealing with whole groups.

Oct 15, 2003, 12:43 pm	#60 (permalink) (top)
tnphydeaux Molten Ash Posts: 63	Referring to cloning, Michael Savage did an oblique piece on cloning, focusing on the clones to be born in the future. That avoided the real issues of cloning now surfacing with an urgency, namely, cloning to conceive protein matched embryonic individual lives for use in harvesting stem cells to 'treat' maladies of older individual lives, thus killing the cloned embryos.