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Fallen Angel · Oct 5, 2003, 02:28 am

Quote:

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@10-04-2003 05:22 PM
Fallen Angel
I do believe that the religious ramifications on the existence or non-existence of cloned people is a relatively unimportant detail. Also, if a clone has no soul, does a premature baby have one? Same arguement, answer one and you answer both.

I think as a Christian that the soul begins its journey back to God from conception.
We are playing God, in these experiments, as the matter of having a soul or not is never discussed with any seriousness by these GE scientists, I assume that the Scientists don't even consider the concept of a clone or for that matter anybody possessing a soul as real or valid.

**Pooeypants** · Oct 5, 2003, 01:19 pm

Define what a soul is and how we would test to find one.
It's all very well saying we are playing God when we're cloning but honestly we're just making use of our resources.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 6, 2003, 12:40 am

If we are 'playing god' then maybe god should not have given us this capacity? My answer to this silliness has always been the same, "If God had meant you to think, he would have given you a brain." I think the double meanings clash in just the right way to make my point...

Section 8 · Oct 7, 2003, 12:36 am

GWB, most opponents of cloning, say that God gave you free will, that your punishment will be after death. Of course how absurd that thought is. It means that you would be going to hell for saving people's life. FA, please define soul. If you mean the Cerebrum? (the part of the brain that thinks, feels, etc.) The term soul is defined as many things, please clarify. Oh and FA, how do you even no what a soul is, and if you have one.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 7, 2003, 12:58 am

section 8
Another fun one. If interferring with God's plan is a sin, and God's ways are not meant to be understood by man. Then we are simply screwed, how can we not interfere with "God's" plan if we have no idea which way he wants the dice to tumble? By simple logic you have exactly a 50% chance of choosing right each time you are faced with two choices and less if faced with more. Given that we make millions of choices each day, even if we can be 'forgiven' we would have to die in prayer to have a chance.

In other words, that abortion doctor is a Saint, those babies would not have a chance to make it to heaven if they are unlucky enough to be born...

Fallen Angel · Oct 7, 2003, 05:44 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-07-2003 12:36 AM
GWB, most opponents of cloning, say that God gave you free will, that your punishment will be after death. Of course how absurd that thought is. It means that you would be going to hell for saving people's life. FA, please define soul. If you mean the Cerebrum? (the part of the brain that thinks, feels, etc.) The term soul is defined as many things, please clarify. Oh and FA, how do you even no what a soul is, and if you have one.

Oh dear you are a lost soul, I don't think God actually pushes us away after we die as not good enough for heaven, that is our own choice, hell is eternity without God.
How do you know you don't have one Section 8?
You are up against a lot of people who believe or did before they died in its existance.
I simply define a soul as my personality, memory, thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
Please, don't push your bland aethism down my throat.

Section 8 · Oct 7, 2003, 10:29 am

FA-
1. I'm not an aethiest, I'm Jewish
2. Your cerebrum defines the way you think and feel
3. I thought God was everywhere, that would be including hell
4. I guess that you've just labeled me as Godless Communist
5. I care about what's right, not about the number of people who believe differently from me.

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 01:08 am

Well you think Homosexuality, releasing mass murderers back into the community, letting anyone into your country is right, so sorry I don't really take you that seriously.
Ther is a lot more to thinking and feeling than just a piece of the meat that makes up a part of your brain.
God is not in Hell, actually my Christian belief teaches Satan has never been there either, he just leads people there, and in fact lives on Earth.
You have said before your an aethiest and a socialist.
As for being Jewish, I find that a bit hard to believe.

Section 8 · Oct 8, 2003, 01:16 am

I'm Jewish, I even went to Yom Kippur services this past weekend. I've never said I was an aethiest. If God wasn't in hell then wouldn't he not be omnipresent. Therefore God would no longer be supreme being.

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 02:50 am

God is everywhere he chooses to be, he has no want or need to be in hell.
Hell is man's own making, when choosing a path through life that deviates from Gods pureness, if man has no appreciation of Gods goodness and cannot relate to his truth, he will not see the glory or be any part of it.
He will have hell instead, which is eternity without God.

Section 8 · Oct 8, 2003, 02:51 am

I take it that would be bad?

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 03:32 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-08-2003 02:51 AM
I take it that would be bad?

Yes, extremely bad.

G. Adams · Oct 8, 2003, 05:59 am

I don't believe in God because I can't. I inherantly cannot put my blind faith into so huge without some sort of proof. I could go along with Christianity just to be safe, or any religion, but then that God would have to throw me in hell anyway because I lied to myself and God all these years because of an off chance. So I don't see why God would punish me for simply following my conscience and remaining true to the mind he, if he does exist, guided me to developing. So I personally think simply follow your conscience and you can never be really wrong, or go to hell.

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 06:38 am

So in other words you want to do what ever you like in your life, without any fear of being judged for it after you die.

G. Adams · Oct 8, 2003, 08:06 am

Its not what I want. I'd love the security I've seen other people have by belief in God or religion. But in my heart I don't believe it right now, and I'd be lying to God to pretend otherwise. So I will do as my conscience tells me, which is after all God's law written on the hearts of Gentiles.

G. Adams · Oct 8, 2003, 08:08 am

And how can I be judged badly if I have only ever done what I believe to be right? In fact I'm sure that any God would prefer people to do what they themselves believed was right rather than what some guy in a dog collar told them was right.

G. Adams · Oct 8, 2003, 08:18 am

And if God wants us to worship him out of fear of his judgement alone then he is not fit for worship.

Section 8 · Oct 8, 2003, 10:57 am

God should be loving and all forgiving. That's how I imagine God. He is omnipresent, and infinently understanding. He wouldn't allow anyone to go to hell. Everyone would go to heaven. If such things exist.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 8, 2003, 11:05 pm

I actually have to side with Adams on this one. I feel the same way. If there is a God what right does he have to judge me? He is the idiot that made the defective part if I fail to operate the way he wants me to. All religions seem to assume that everyone 'knows' the right choice, but we do not, it is a con game designed to shame you into pretending you feel something that is not there.

Section 8 · Oct 9, 2003, 01:22 am

I'm on your guy's side. If their is even a God it would understand you fully and welcome you no matter what your beliefs.

Oct 5, 2003, 01:19 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,602	Define what a soul is and how we would test to find one. It's all very well saying we are playing God when we're cloning but honestly we're just making use of our resources. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Oct 6, 2003, 12:40 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	If we are 'playing god' then maybe god should not have given us this capacity? My answer to this silliness has always been the same, "If God had meant you to think, he would have given you a brain." I think the double meanings clash in just the right way to make my point... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 7, 2003, 12:58 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	section 8 Another fun one. If interferring with God's plan is a sin, and God's ways are not meant to be understood by man. Then we are simply screwed, how can we not interfere with "God's" plan if we have no idea which way he wants the dice to tumble? By simple logic you have exactly a 50% chance of choosing right each time you are faced with two choices and less if faced with more. Given that we make millions of choices each day, even if we can be 'forgiven' we would have to die in prayer to have a chance. In other words, that abortion doctor is a Saint, those babies would not have a chance to make it to heaven if they are unlucky enough to be born... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 8, 2003, 05:59 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,153	I don't believe in God because I can't. I inherantly cannot put my blind faith into so huge without some sort of proof. I could go along with Christianity just to be safe, or any religion, but then that God would have to throw me in hell anyway because I lied to myself and God all these years because of an off chance. So I don't see why God would punish me for simply following my conscience and remaining true to the mind he, if he does exist, guided me to developing. So I personally think simply follow your conscience and you can never be really wrong, or go to hell. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 8, 2003, 08:06 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,153	Its not what I want. I'd love the security I've seen other people have by belief in God or religion. But in my heart I don't believe it right now, and I'd be lying to God to pretend otherwise. So I will do as my conscience tells me, which is after all God's law written on the hearts of Gentiles. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 7, 2003, 12:36 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	GWB, most opponents of cloning, say that God gave you free will, that your punishment will be after death. Of course how absurd that thought is. It means that you would be going to hell for saving people's life. FA, please define soul. If you mean the Cerebrum? (the part of the brain that thinks, feels, etc.) The term soul is defined as many things, please clarify. Oh and FA, how do you even no what a soul is, and if you have one.

Oct 7, 2003, 10:29 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	FA- 1. I'm not an aethiest, I'm Jewish 2. Your cerebrum defines the way you think and feel 3. I thought God was everywhere, that would be including hell 4. I guess that you've just labeled me as Godless Communist 5. I care about what's right, not about the number of people who believe differently from me.

Oct 8, 2003, 01:08 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Well you think Homosexuality, releasing mass murderers back into the community, letting anyone into your country is right, so sorry I don't really take you that seriously. Ther is a lot more to thinking and feeling than just a piece of the meat that makes up a part of your brain. God is not in Hell, actually my Christian belief teaches Satan has never been there either, he just leads people there, and in fact lives on Earth. You have said before your an aethiest and a socialist. As for being Jewish, I find that a bit hard to believe.

Oct 8, 2003, 01:16 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I'm Jewish, I even went to Yom Kippur services this past weekend. I've never said I was an aethiest. If God wasn't in hell then wouldn't he not be omnipresent. Therefore God would no longer be supreme being.

Oct 8, 2003, 02:50 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	God is everywhere he chooses to be, he has no want or need to be in hell. Hell is man's own making, when choosing a path through life that deviates from Gods pureness, if man has no appreciation of Gods goodness and cannot relate to his truth, he will not see the glory or be any part of it. He will have hell instead, which is eternity without God.

Oct 8, 2003, 02:51 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I take it that would be bad?

Oct 8, 2003, 06:38 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	So in other words you want to do what ever you like in your life, without any fear of being judged for it after you die.

Oct 8, 2003, 08:08 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,153	And how can I be judged badly if I have only ever done what I believe to be right? In fact I'm sure that any God would prefer people to do what they themselves believed was right rather than what some guy in a dog collar told them was right. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 8, 2003, 08:18 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,153	And if God wants us to worship him out of fear of his judgement alone then he is not fit for worship. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 8, 2003, 10:57 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	God should be loving and all forgiving. That's how I imagine God. He is omnipresent, and infinently understanding. He wouldn't allow anyone to go to hell. Everyone would go to heaven. If such things exist.

Oct 8, 2003, 11:05 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	I actually have to side with Adams on this one. I feel the same way. If there is a God what right does he have to judge me? He is the idiot that made the defective part if I fail to operate the way he wants me to. All religions seem to assume that everyone 'knows' the right choice, but we do not, it is a con game designed to shame you into pretending you feel something that is not there.

Oct 9, 2003, 01:22 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I'm on your guy's side. If their is even a God it would understand you fully and welcome you no matter what your beliefs.