Near Death Experiences

[Captain Chaos]

Are they:

1) Real
2) Hallucinations
3) A bit of both

[rez]

Hallucinations



Read about the pineal gland and what happens before death.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_Gland


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

[Captain Chaos]

Hmmm - those articles are rather speculative, in their sections that deal with Near Death Experiences.

An NDE often includes an Out of Body Experience (OBE).

Some of those types of NDEs involve the patient seeing and verifying information about the medical procedure that the patient should not have known.

The materialist explanations for some of those cases can seem a bit far fetched at times. If you have to work too hard to rationalize an explanation, that explanation starts to seem less likely.


And therein lies the problem. Both sides make good arguments, and reason alone will not lead to a certain conclusion.

[dsanthony]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Are they: 1) Real 2) Hallucinations 3) A bit of both

What is "real"?

Near Death experiences are the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain...

[Rave7pt0]

I believe from experience that they are real, but I don't reject the notion that it could have some physical cause. Materialists say it's a hallucination, but what if the chemical actually acts as a separation agent for the body and conciousness?

I think the world is far more complex than most realize or can imagine, so I think as we try to understand what it is that really takes place, we'll have to wrestle with our own limitations. Like a 2 dimensional being in a 3d universe.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

"..but what if the chemical actually acts as a separation agent for the body and conciousness? "

Uhuh.

[dreamer]

1) Real.
And on these one know one will change my heart.
Dreamer

[Nono]

Quote by: dsanthony Near Death experiences are the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain...

Well then they should mimic the symptoms of hypoxia, shouldn't they?
But they don't.

[Samildanach]

Real, however, I think the brain taps into some kind of very low level quantum sensing ability that it has but can't access under any other circumstances due to a lowered brain frequency and extends its information gathering ability that way.....kind of like you can hear more when the lights are out.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Samildanach Real, however, I think the brain taps into some kind of very low level quantum sensing ability that it has but can't access under any other circumstances due to a lowered brain frequency and extends its information gathering ability that way.....kind of like you can hear more when the lights are out.

And you think this because...?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dreamer 1) Real. And on these one know one will change my heart. Dreamer

And no these one know one will change my heart??

wtf does that mean?

[Captain Chaos]

The problem I have with the materialist explanation of NDEs is that so damn much rationalization is required.

I mean, when your heart is stopped, your brain stops working. So, when a guy is out of his body watching the resusitation procedures, his brain shouldn't be working, meaning his consciousness is existing without his brain.

Well, not necessarily. Materialists say that his brain is getting enough oxygen because of the resusication procedure itself to maintain a state of clear consciousness.

Ok, maybe. I mean, that sounds real doubtful, but maybe.


Then, there are cases where patients like Pam Reynolds observe verifying information of their medical procedures. In her case she observed some sort instrument that was used to cut into her head, that had an interchangeable blade. This observation was correct. She also observed a notch on the handle, and that observation was incorrect. Given the unreliable nature of human memory and observation, I am not surprised by incorrect observations. I am however, impressed by precise observations of an instrument she could not have seen physically (her eyes were taped shut).

However, this too has a materialist explanation. Supposedly, she could have guessed at the whole interchangeable saw apparatus because she was the right age to have been exposed to interchangeable dental tools when she was younger.

Well, ok, maybe.


For all the various reports of NDEs in which people gather veridical information, there is always some sort of materialist explanation.


And therein lies the problem. The survival explanation is consistent with the personal experiences of people who have NDEs. It provides a nice neat way of tying together a huge variety of experiences, with only a few simple rationalizations. The materialist explanation requires one ad hoc explanation after another, with endless rationalizations.

To me, the materialist explanation only seems preferable if you start from that assumption that any materialist explanation is, by default, superior to a survival explanation.

If you start from the belief that either is possible, the survival hypothesis seems much more reasonable.

[5010]

What is the survival hypothesis?

[Cole]

I know a guy who almost died (there was a harmful substance in his mountain dew). He supposively had an OBE from an NDE. At the hospital, he was declaired dead for 5 minutes and then came back after around that amount of time. So yes, I think very much they are a reality.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: 5010 What is the survival hypothesis?

Survival of consciousness after bodily death.

[Samildanach]

I mean, when your heart is stopped, your brain stops working

That could be a problem with our equipment sensitivity more than anything else, we just might not be able to detect the lowest levels of brain function.

[Samildanach]

And you think this because...?

Because its a possible explanation that to me makes sense. IF your brain starts to operate at a different frequency then its likely to be able to pick up different sensory input, much the same way that if you tune a radio to a differnt frequency you pick up a differnet station. As the brain in theory starts to die its frequency should start to lower. At lower frequencies it possible it can tap into a different data stream.

[rez]

it just does not make much sense to me to still have consciousness after one is dead.

I would assume you would agree that the brain is what controlls consciousness. Awareness is not something seperate from the human body. I will take shrooms, my body becomes ill and I get a fever - the result is I start having Hallucinations because my brain chemistry is just a little different then usual. I don't consider a hobbit eating an egg to be real when tripping and I dont consider floating around during surgery real either.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Samildanach I mean, when your heart is stopped, your brain stops working That could be a problem with our equipment sensitivity more than anything else, we just might not be able to detect the lowest levels of brain function.

At the lowest levels of brain function, you would not be experiencing clear consciousness. Also, no blood means no oxygen, thus no neuron firing. Our models of neuron function do not allow for brain-based consciousness without oxygen for any length of time.

If there are any neurologists or docs lurking on this, please feel free to step in and clarify.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Rez it just does not make much sense to me to still have consciousness after one is dead. I would assume you would agree that the brain is what controlls consciousness.

Well, the point is that the brain does not necessarily control consciousness, if your consciousness continues after death.

The best model I can come up with for how the soul/brain interface would work, is this:

During life, the soul is constrained by the brain.


I am not saying that is true - I am just saying that if we are trying to imagine how consciousness could be both a part of the brain, and separate from it as well, that would be the best model that I can figure.

I don't consider a hobbit eating an egg to be real when tripping and I dont consider floating around during surgery real either.

When you are tripping, do you ever gather veridical information?