Near Death Experiences

[Fleamo]

I have to say hallucination on this one...there are always those stories of people who seem to know things they couldn't possibly know, but that's just because you only hear about the people who guess right. If someone had said "the knife working on me had an interchangable head and a notch on the end" and been wrong, their family would just say "oh hush, you were just hallucinating because of the drugs they put you on" and we would never hear about it.

I know there are some things we cannot explain in this world, but I don't think this is one of those things. I'm fairly convinced there is no 'soul' to leave the body, and any indication that someone thinks it can is just a hallucination caused by any number of factors.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Fleamo I have to say hallucination on this one...there are always those stories of people who seem to know things they couldn't possibly know, but that's just because you only hear about the people who guess right.

That depends on the degree of specificity - like the Dutch guy who had an NDE while in cardiac arrest. Later on, he recognized the orderly who had pulled out his dentures during that time. He witnessed the orderly taking out his dentures while he was out-of-body.

There are other interesting components to NDEs. Why is the life review so common? What is the materialist explanation for the life review?

[rez]

Quote by: Captain Chaos When you are tripping, do you ever gather veridical information?

I get - "that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves." Kinda of thing....I don't think you can pinpoint that quote to truthful information that will be percieved in the future, but I don't feel the patient being able to tell what kind of tool the doctor is using as veridical information either.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: rez but I don't feel the patient being able to tell what kind of tool the doctor is using as veridical information either.

What about a patient identifying the orderly that took out his dentures while he was in cardiac arrest?

[Zhavric]

I suffer from migraine headaches.

Every ten to thirty days, for reasons medical science cannot discern, the blood vessels in my neck and scalp constrict for about a half hour and then open WAY too wide for many hours afterwards. Other chemical changes in my body accompany this process causing nausea, hypersensitivity to sound & light, stuttering, diarhea and a feeling of general misery.

In every attack I've ever had, when the blood vessels constrict for the first half hour... I see things. Lights. Colors. Sparkles. It's not unlike the images one sees in one's field of vision when one rubs one's eyes vigorously... except they slowly linger.

I bring this up because I could invent a host of nonsensical explanations that would be "logical" in a god-of-gaps way. I could invent aliens that communicate in a language of sparkles and declare them attempting to contact humanity using alpha waves that affects certain individuals by giving them migraines. I could decide that I am especially sinful and that some invented god is punishing me.

I could invent all these things and HUNDREDS more, but ultimately they're all useless as explanations (though amusing as fictions).

Near Death Experiences (NDE's) do not strike me as anything more than hallucinations. In fact, there's no evidence that they're anything more than hallucinations.

"But Zhavric!" some of you will say "What about the people who describe things they've seen while unconscious?" To you I say this:

Show me an individual who had an NDE and woke right up from it to tell his/her tale directly.

NDE's always seem to happen in hospitals. They're always related after the fact with plenty of time for family members, orderlies, janitors, doctors and nurses to visit and explain what went on.

Remember: people desire attention.

As for the individuals who claim NDE's but have no recollection of events, places or objects? I see this as nothing more than a dream-state BEFORE and just AFTER their bodies shut down. I've yet to see an NDE where an individual was conscious, lost consciouness at the moment their heart stopped and then instatnly gained full consciousness the moment their heart started up again.

It's just a hallucination... no different from the lights I "see" when I have a migraine.

[5010]

Check this out.

"A story relates how Lavoisier arranged a final experiment at his death intended to determine whether and for how long a severed head remains conscious after decapitation. Supposedly, Lavoisier decided to blink as many times as possible and arranged for an assistant count the blinks, which numbered between 15 and 20."

It makes perfect sense to me that stopping the heart doesn't immediately stop the brain. Have you ever been strangled? Back in jr high, a kid thought it was funny when he grabbed the towel I had over my shoulders and twisted it, and I noticed the world going dark and went into a frenzy to stop him.

Think about it. Inside your body is sort of like a pond oxygenated by a fountain. The cells absorb it from surrounding fluids and burn it. If you turn off the fountain and cover the pond, the microbes don't immediately die. For humans, stop the blood supply, and the cells continue to deplete the nearby O2 until there's not enough to burn, then they switch to anaerobic respiration, which burns glucose into lactic acid, releases hydrogen ions, and lowers the pH until respiration enzymes fail to function.

Something interesting is a study on using low doses of hydrogen sulfide to induce hibernation, reducing the metabolism to 10%, body temperature to 2°C above ambient (in effect, become cold blooded), and kept like that for hours. This hasn't been tested on anything higher than mice, as far as I know. I wonder if someone would experience something similar to NDE in such a state.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Samildanach Because its a possible explanation that to me makes sense. IF your brain starts to operate at a different frequency then its likely to be able to pick up different sensory input, much the same way that if you tune a radio to a differnt frequency you pick up a differnet station. As the brain in theory starts to die its frequency should start to lower. At lower frequencies it possible it can tap into a different data stream.

How do you gain sight from above your body, if it's not just a hallucination/delusion?

Why would your brain at lower frequencies gain sight from above your body?

Can you back this up?

[Captain Chaos]

Near Death Experiences (NDE's) do not strike me as anything more than hallucinations. In fact, there's no evidence that they're anything more than hallucinations.

This is the single most manipulative tactic that skeptics use. Your statement that there is no evidence is false, and you know it. Weak evidence is not the same as no evidence. Some of the evidence, in fact, has convinced quite a few people. The fact that the evidence is not strong enough for you does not mean that it does not exist.

Skeptic claim a moral highground on the basis of using superior logic. Using manipulative techniques, such as claiming that inadequate evidence (in their view) equals no evidence, is hypocritcal and weakens their reliability as sources. It demonstrates their desire to win an argument, not arrive at truth.

Show me an individual who had an NDE and woke right up from it to tell his/her tale directly.

Are you claiming this has never happened? I think you can do your own homework on this, and find plenty of such cases. Those cases might not be convincing to you, but they do exist. Start with the IANDS site (www.iands.org) and go from there.

NDE's always seem to happen in hospitals. They're always related after the fact with plenty of time for family members, orderlies, janitors, doctors and nurses to visit and explain what went on. Remember: people desire attention.

This sort of comment shows to me that you really have not looked at this topic in much depth.

Here is an archive of scientist's who have had spiritual experiences, including near death experiences:

http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=arc&ss=1

And no, before you state the obvious, I am not saying their anecdotal reprots prove anything. I am providing this as an example of lots of people who are not doing it for attention - many of whom who dare not even list their true name for fear of attack by their colleagues.

I've yet to see an NDE where an individual was conscious, lost consciouness at the moment their heart stopped and then instatnly gained full consciousness the moment their heart started up again.

I do not understand what you are looking for here. The NDEs that happen during cardiac arrest involve consciousness continuing after the heart stops.

It's just a hallucination... no different from the lights I "see" when I have a migraine.

This is a statement of faith.


Zhavric, please explain the materialist explanation for the life review to me?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: 5010 It makes perfect sense to me that stopping the heart doesn't immediately stop the brain. Have you ever been strangled?

Oh sure. I have studied a bit of grappling - been strangled many times. Here is an explanation on blood flow and consciousness by an NDE researcher.

http://iands.org/research/fenwick3.php


Basically, you aint got long before you are out of it. Either way, your brain should not be supporting clear-headed consciousness, in which you can observe things and note details - like recognizing an orderly, or describing specific medical equipment.


And at this point, I want to illustrate what is happening here. For every example I give, the skeptics will have to come up with one or another ad hoc explanation for what is happening. There is a simple explanation that is also consistent, and doesn't require all this rationalization - continuation of consciousness.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Near Death Experiences Are they: 1) Real 2) Hallucinations 3) A bit of both

I would rather say that is reality, since we do not know our brain capabilities.

[dreamer]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer And no these one know one will change my heart?? wtf does that mean?

mind blank don;t know what happened there ^ ^ ^ , try again here goes, my heart well never be changed its {1. Real }

[Logjam]

You have an inate will to survive. Given a choice you will naturely choose life over death. Unless, of course you are a terrorist fanatic. In that case the natural order of things if thrown out of the mix.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dreamer mind blank don;t know what happened there ^ ^ ^ , try again here goes, my heart well never be changed its {1. Real }

Alright.. And why's that? Have you personally experienced these things? Do you find the evidence convincing?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Logjam You have an inate will to survive. Given a choice you will naturely choose life over death. Unless, of course you are a terrorist fanatic. In that case the natural order of things if thrown out of the mix.

How does this relate to the topic?

[dreamer]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Alright.. And why's that? Have you personally experienced these things? Do you find the evidence convincing?

I have personally experienced these thing.

[Captain Chaos]

I have personally had a few hundred out-of-body experiences. I can personally testify to their hallucinatory nature.

The OBEs during an NDE are different. The experiencer tends to be very clear-headed - and they actually see verifyable things, rather than it just being dream like.

[Captain Chaos]

Really you guys.

I am very interested to hear the materialist explanation for the life review process. It has many common features that occur across cultures. The spiritual explanation seems more fitting for this process.

[Logjam]

Quote by: Logjam You have an inate will to survive. Given a choice you will naturely choose life over death. Unless, of course you are a terrorist fanatic. In that case the natural order of things if thrown out of the mix.

I was responding to a question someone had about the inate will to survive. Can't recall the exact question, as I didn't "quote" it. Had something to do with the instinct to survive......as for it's relevence: well, I'm not sure.

Oh, that's right: we're talking about near death experiences right? I don't believe in them.

However; I experience "out of body" experiences all of the time. Have my entire life. If I want to then "whish" I'm on the ceiling looking down, where I can see myself sitting at the computer writing about drivel.

[Captain Chaos]

Really you guys.

I am very interested to hear the materialist explanation for the life review process. It has many common features that occur across cultures. The spiritual explanation seems more fitting for this process.

[Captain Chaos]

What it comes down to is this...

Both a materialist and non-materialist explanation are possible for NDEs.

However, I believe the non-materialist explanation is a better fit for the evidence at hand, and is not inconsistent with what we know of reality in other areas.

Some people believe that any materialist explanation, not matter how much rationalizing is required, is superior to a non-materialist explanation. I believe that is a belief of faith, not of reason.