Evidence of God

[RickSp]

Why can't God just come around and say "hi, I exist"? Because that would not convince many atheists. They would say it's just some trick. Besides, maybe God does not care whether we believe. If I created a fish tank, I might not care whether the fish believe in me. I just want to watch the fish.

As a matter of fact, evidence, any evidence, of the existence of a supreme being is exactly what most athiests ask for, whether or not you are willing to believe it. Instead most theists ask, and in many cases demand, that everyone believe in their particular cosmology on "faith", which is just another way of saying "because I say so".

I find it interesting how, with your fish bowl analogy, you immediately imply that humans are too stupid or merely unworthy to be able to grasp the existence your particular god. Sounds like another variation of the "Emperor's New Clothes" to me, with your religion playing the clothes.

[Don Shaw]

There is no solid evidence of the existence of a supreme being. For the faithful believer. none is needed. For the non believer, no amount of evidence would be sufficient.

What is needed is a system that allows the believers and non-believers to live and work side by side in mutual respect.

[Savant]

There is no solid evidence of the existence of a supreme being. For the faithful believer. none is needed. For the non believer, no amount of evidence would be sufficient.

What is needed is a system that allows the believers and non-believers to live and work side by side in mutual respect.

That is false. Even a little evidence would satisfy many a non-believer. The fact that (even you admit) there is absoluelty NO evidence of this incredible being/event is the reason that any person capable of the slightest doubt will find themself dissapointed by religions.

I would like it if there were a creater bieng I could meet someday. It would be great if death was meanigless because I was eternal... but that fact that I would like those things to be true doesn't mean I should believe them without any evidence to support them.

[Prometheus]

There is no solid evidence of the existence of a supreme being. For the faithful believer. none is needed. For the non believer, no amount of evidence would be sufficient.

What is needed is a system that allows the believers and non-believers to live and work side by side in mutual respect.

I agree totally with this. For me, this discussion is mainly academic, with no impact on my religious convictions.

[RickSp]

There is no solid evidence of the existence of a supreme being. For the faithful believer. none is needed. For the non believer, no amount of evidence would be sufficient.

What is needed is a system that allows the believers and non-believers to live and work side by side in mutual respect.

Only half of your first statement is correct. Any evidence would at least engage the non-believers. As it is, your tautology is a bit too smug and self-serving.

The real problem is that historically believers have tended to claim the right to convert, kill or coerce both non-believers and/or those who did not share their particular set of beliefs.

In America where the Constitution established a seperation of church and state, and just slightly later in Western Europe, the principle of freedom of religion was finally established. Even now the religious are constantly trying to break down that wall of seperation. As a non-believer I can hope for mutual respect from the believers. Given the record, past and present, I just may not expect it.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Let's not be stupid. Assuming that there is a god. And assuming that he talked to bothe Nephi and Isiah, there is no reason why he had to talk to both of them at the same time. He said the same things to both of them. How did they remember what he said? That's kind of a petty question. My guess is that when god speaks to you, it makes a pretty good impression.

You think you are pretty smart, but you haven't even picked up on the largest similar part of the BOM. Almost a whole chapte is nearly exactly the same as a Matt 5 - the sermon on the mount is given almost word for word.

Alright no one's memory is that good. I don't care what impression it makes. You can't remember like 30 paragrahs of what someone said, and what you said. Maybe if they had a pencil and paper, but I doubt it. Let's not be stupid.

Didn't they live at different times though? Nephi was born around 600 B.C. and was in the Americas or something which is a load of crap. The Vikings were the greatest ship builders of their time and yet somehow this family built their own ship and sailed across the entire Atlantic Ocean 1000-1500 years before them. Yeah right. Then Isaiah was born in 760 B.C. So by what I can see, they didn't live around the same time. And Nephi was young when he left Jerusalem to go to the Americas anyways because he was with Lehi and the rest of the gang. I doubt Jesus told them the same things as well as telling them at different times as well as letting them write all this crap down.

[Prometheus]

Alright no one's memory is that good. I don't care what impression it makes. You can't remember like 30 paragrahs of what someone said, and what you said. Maybe if they had a pencil and paper, but I doubt it. Let's not be stupid.
...well as letting them write all this crap down.

If god/jesus wanted his words recorded would he not provide for them to be transcribed?

Didn't they live at different times though?
...
I doubt Jesus told them the same things as well as telling them at different times

Why not? When I was 6 my mom told me not to walk in the house with muddy shoes. When my little brother was 6 he got told the same thing. It's not exactly hard to say the same thing at different times to different people...

The Vikings were the greatest ship builders of their time and yet somehow this family built their own ship and sailed across the entire Atlantic Ocean 1000-1500 years before them. Yeah right.

Well if god told them how to build the boat it isn't that much of a stretch.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

If god/jesus wanted his words recorded would he not provide for them to be transcribed?

lol. So as he was telling him this what did they do, etch it out in stone? Maybe he provided some papyrus. Possibly the stylus was used.

Why not? When I was 6 my mom told me not to walk in the house with muddy shoes. When my little brother was 6 he got told the same thing. It's not exactly hard to say the same thing at different times to different people...

Oh ok. Well, "Honey don't walk in the house with your shoes on," and paragraphs upon paragrpahs of recorded words are completely different. Nice try. If God was so perfect why would he create two separate religions? He "led" Nephi to the Americas and kept the rest in Jerusalem...

Well if god told them how to build the boat it isn't that much of a stretch.

Did he provide the necessary materials, too? Maybe some elbow grease too. Even if they had the materials, they would not have known the way, so he must have guided them too. I'm sure they would have crashed, like half the Viking ships 1500 years later, so I'm sure he got tired and just picked up the boat and walked across the water to the other side.

[Prometheus]

lol. So as he was telling him this what did they do, etch it out in stone? Maybe he provided some papyrus. Possibly the stylus was used.

Both Nephi and Isaiah were in societies with paper products (papyrus and or vellum), and both were of high enough standing to be using them. I can't believe that your attack of the record centers upon what material they took notes on.

Oh ok. Well, "Honey don't walk in the house with your shoes on," and paragraphs upon paragrpahs of recorded words are completely different.

You were saying that it is silly to believe that god would say the same thing to different people in different times. This is totally unfounded. There is nothing irrational about saying the same thing at different times to different people.

Nice try. If God was so perfect why would he create two separate religions? He "led" Nephi to the Americas and kept the rest in Jerusalem...

Yet again your ignorance procedes you... Nephi and his lot were Jews, just like the poor sods in Jerusalem. They weren't a different religion. They were just the only jews listening to god at the time. God led his faithfull followers away form the destruction about to happen in Jerusalem.

Did he provide the necessary materials, too?

Actually, there was timber and iron ore nearby. And there happens to be only one source of iron in the arabian penissula coast. And it's right where the BOM says it was.

Maybe some elbow grease too.

? This is just petty. There were plenty of people in the group to build the boat.

they would not have known the way, so he must have guided them too.

They were guided... it is stated explicitly in the BOM that they were guided. Maybe you should learn what you are ranting about before you post.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Both Nephi and Isaiah were in societies with paper products (papyrus and or vellum), and both were of high enough standing to be using them. I can't believe that your attack of the record centers upon what material they took notes on.

If God wanted them to write his words down so badly to share with everyone else, why wouldn't he do it himself? Or maybe tell them in person?

You were saying that it is silly to believe that god would say the same thing to different people in different times. This is totally unfounded. There is nothing irrational about saying the same thing at different times to different people.

Ok it's rational, but it still makes no sense. The first guy wrote it down anyways.

Yet again your ignorance procedes you... Nephi and his lot were Jews, just like the poor sods in Jerusalem. They weren't a different religion. They were just the only jews listening to god at the time. God led his faithfull followers away form the destruction about to happen in Jerusalem.

But he knew ahead of time about Joseph Smith, right? So does that make you a Jew? Why would he set himself up for another religion to be created since he already knows the future? What's so ignorant about that? Stop sounding like my Bible school teacher. She was crazy.

Actually, there was timber and iron ore nearby. And there happens to be only one source of iron in the arabian penissula coast. And it's right where the BOM says it was.

A timber ship full of people would not have been large of enough to safely make it's way across the Atlantic. And can you find me a site that says Iron can be found in the Arabian Peninsula. One study found that if you mix of bunch of the elements in the peninsula it is possible to make usable iron, but no one knew about it until now and no one had the technology to make it. It would be pretty weird to see an iron ship 2000+ years ago. Why didn't he just fly them over there? I'm sure travel rates were down during the time.

Little side note:

The Book of Mormon mentions: wheat (Mosiah 9:9), horses (1 Nephi 18:25), chariots (Alma 18:9-11; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22), cows (Enos 21), elephants (Ether 9:19), silk (Alma 1:29; 4:6; Ether 9:17), linen (Mosiah 10:5; Helamon 6:13; Ether 10:24), money-pieces of gold and silver (Alma 11:3-20), steel (2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9). None of these items were here before the Spaniards.

[Flip Jackson]

First, some of those things you listed did exist here before the spaniards. Horses for example. Here is an objective site for you about ancient American horses.

http://www.acnatsci.org/museum/leidy/paleo/equus.html

And gold and silver existed in many forms. That was why the Spaniards attacked so many Indians. For the precious metal.

I don't have time to look them all up, but you might want to look some of those up yourself, before you claim them as truth.

In response to some of your earlier comments. Isaiah was not in the New Testament. Isaiah was "quoted" by Nephi, God didn't just tell them the same things. As you pointed out, Isaiah was born before Nephi, so this is entirely possible. And while your scriptures from Matthew and 3 Nephi are similar, they aren't exactly the same. Nephi was not
quoting Matthew here. Christ Himself is said to have been speaking in both instances. So it makes sense. People often have one speech or talk that they give to two different groups.

And it is perfectly reasonable for me to say that Isaiah used symbolism. He is known for his symbolism and his difficult literary technique. If you read Isaiah you may see what I mean. You cannot tell me that I am not allowed to say the Bible has symbolism. There is a lot in the Bible and Book of Mormon. And I did not say all your calims are wrong due to symbolism, only those related to Isaiah, because that is what he is known for.

At the time that the Nephites left Jerusalem, they were considered Jewish. They followed Jewish customs and traditions. But when Christ came again, He said that a new law was now in effect. The Nephites followed the new law. Today's Jews do not believe Jesus was the Christ. That is how we differ from Jews.

You have asked what the Gold plates are. They are a record of an ancient American people. The record was engraven on golden plates bound by rings on the side. The plates were placed in a stone box in the ground. Hundreds of years later, Joseph Smith removed them. This is relevant beacuse, when Joseph talked of these gold plates in a stone box, people ridiculed him for it. They claimed the Book of Mormon was false beacuse no one had heard of records on metal plates in a stone box. Nowadays people have, so Josepoh was right.

[Flip Jackson]

Savant, I am a little annoyed that you continue to say that there is NO evidence. I thought I gave a lot of physical evidence to support a God of some sort. That was the point of the thread. You can go back to the first post if you like.

I approached my evidence of God in this fasion.

1.) I gave evidence that the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient record. I said nothing of the Book's spiritual aspect.
2.) I gave some rather specific prophecies or predictions that came true. If we accept that the Book of Mormon is an authentic record, then these predictions are remarkable.

I say that these show that there is a supreme being of sorts. Otherwise how could such predictions be made by people who lived so long ago?

Now you can disagree with my interpretation, but the physical evidence for my belief is right there. Will you consider it?


Also there are a couple of you who bring the Bible into this thread. I am not discussing the spiritual aspects of the Bible or Book of Mormon. I am trying to show that the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient record. Not a religious authority. So such comments about how only the Bible is the word of God, have no place in this thread.