Intelligent Design - really?

[Technosoul]

I don't smoke, but what I have done when I was in the Canadian wilderness was to make a very smoky fire and stay in the smoke. As you said you get covered in soot and smell like smoke and the litter buggers apparently don't like that.

Starboy

That would be a pratical aternative for smoking - Looks like "Ash Sunday" might be rooted in this practical application of "science". So Soot Sunday is not a bad idea and I could imagine that if blowing smoke and ashes about can dirve off some insects they might think it was good protection also from those invisable "micro demons" (germs) that those blood sucking insects bring to our tent door. Hindu holy men often mediate covered in ashes.

I find it interesting how one idea (practical and logical) can lead to other ideas that are then housed as religious rituals - and then over time the root idea becomes faded and becomes templated by a spiritural or religious idea that seems to have no real reason for being.

Well, my orginal post might be unworthy for the attention of some people but these little "side trips" are interesting - in my opinon.

Technosoul.

[Starboy]

That would be a pratical aternative for smoking - Looks like "Ash Sunday" might be rooted in this practical application of "science". So Soot Sunday is not a bad idea and I could imagine that if blowing smoke and ashes about can dirve off some insects they might think it was good protection also from those invisable "micro demons" (germs) that those blood sucking insects bring to our tent door. Hindu holy men often mediate covered in ashes.

My understanding is that this is what the natives of that area have been doing for some time now. Long before there were Christians.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

My understanding is that this is what the natives of that area have been doing for some time now. Long before there were Christians.

Starboy

That's right - they stayed true to the old ways. (most of them). I would guess (with a great deal of sureness) that native tribes all around the globe did the same thing long before we had Christians or even the Jewish religion, or Hindu. I feel sure primitive tribes had campfires internationally before we had those relatively new religions. Also, primitive pipes have been found in Africa and South America and other places (China?) - so they had been smoking something (if not just tobacco). Tech.

[Technosoul]

Well folks - I am moving to a new house and so will be going off-line for the time being - might be back in a month or so.

Therefore I will not be able to continue debate on this topic.

(poll currently does not indicate a solid swing in any direction).

[Savant]

no.. not really. No firmament either. Doh!

[Chalk]

I would not know how to create life, so I can't say. What I can create is a painting or a sculpture.. I know in my head what vision I wish to create, but the process of making things is difficult. I may visualise one thing and create another, different to my intention, so perhaps the creator is not perfect, and therefore the creations cannot be.

[James]

I would not know how to create life, so I can't say. What I can create is a painting or a sculpture.. I know in my head what vision I wish to create, but the process of making things is difficult. I may visualise one thing and create another, different to my intention, so perhaps the creator is not perfect, and therefore the creations cannot be.

But all creations were perfect. Therefore the creator must be perfect. The imperfections were a result of free will. And granting free will does not constitute imperfection in the designer.

[belverron]

But all creations were perfect. Therefore the creator must be perfect.

That is not completely sound reasoning. And just because the Bible says something does not make it the unequivocal truth for everyone in this forum. Please respect us in that, as many of us respect you in your beliefs.

[James]

That is not completely sound reasoning. And just because the Bible says something does not make it the unequivocal truth for everyone in this forum. Please respect us in that, as many of us respect you in your beliefs.

Imperfection coming from imperfection and perfection resulting from perfection sounds like a reasonable thing to say. :(

And what does respect 'mean' to you?

[Jack]

As David Barash says,

It is simply deplorable that the prostate gland is so close to the urinary system that (the common) enlargement of the former impinges awkwardly on the latter. In addition, as human testicles descended -- both in evolution and in embryology -- the vas deferens (which carries sperm) became looped around the ureter (which carries urine from kidneys to bladder), resulting in an altogether illogical arrangement that would never have occurred if, like a minimally competent designer, natural selection could have anticipated the situation.

There's much more that the supposed designer botched: ill-constructed knee joints that wear out, a lower back that's prone to pain, an inverted exit of the optic nerve via the retina, resulting in a blind spot. And what about the theological implications? If God is the designer, and we are created in his image, does that mean he has back problems, too?

The point is that these and other incongruities testify to the contingent, unplanned, entirely natural nature of natural selection. We are profoundly imperfect, cobbled together rather then designed. And in these imperfections reside some of the best arguments for our equally profound natural-ness.

[James]

As David Barash says,

As I said before: All things WERE creatED perfect. All imperfections are a result of greed and a lack of faith. And the Bible says God created us in His IMAGE, not with His blueprints. Who are we to decide what's an imperfection and what's not?

[Jack]

I think we can better explain these particular imperfections by realizing that we come from a line of creatures that walked on all four feet, and that our bodies are still not adapted fully to walking upright. Nothing supernatural to it.