you mean this one? ::shakes hand::
you mean this one? ::shakes hand::
Dang! You are not supposed to show them that handshake! It reveals our hidden secret. That we are only human.Quote by: asterix404
Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new!
Here is your chance to shine!
You and I both know that no one in this forum will be able to demonstrate unequivocally whether or not there is a God.
But in a philosophy forum [as opposed to, say, Sunday School] if someone proposes that something is true it is their responsibilty to demonstrate this is so.
So, if there is a God and your God just happens to be the God....demonstrate it.
Also, if your God does exist then how do you explain the recent tsunami in South Asian, the fact that 80% of all pregnancies end spontaeously in abortion, that a new born baby can come into the world afflicted with any one of over 3,000 genetic defects, that 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agfony from starvation in just the 20th century etc etc etc.
If that is an example of an intelligent design can you imagine how screwed up the world would be if God was autistic?
In other words, even if you could demonstrate his existence we are not exactly talking about a God who gives a crap about us, right?
Finally, if God exists and he is omnscient then everything any mere mortal thinks or says or does can only be an inherent manifestatiin of this. Therefore human autonomy and free will cannot exist and therefore we cannot be held morally responsible for anything we say or do.
God exists? Maybe. But who in his right mind would worship and adore him in this world?
Flocks of sheep, of course.
Order is not at issue. The relevance of entropy in this topic, is it's effect on complexity.Quote by: asterix404
Geez man! What is with you atheists. I ask in this one particular thread to give support-a logical agrument- to support your view and all I get is the same old tired statements. The best you can do is paint a God, you don't even believe in, as evil and then ask me to prove you wrong. What a waste of time! If you have any real interest, read my previous posts.Quote by: randall patrick
You guys always say:
1. There is noGod
2. If there is a God, He has to be evil.
3. I want no part of God.
Nothing like an open mind. Too bad you can't change reality.
Heed the words of some of the few smart atheists:
1. From Ricksp: I have never been overly fond of the "problem of evil" argument, not because it lacks validity but because it is unnecessary. I see no compelling evidence for the existence of god, so the fact that the problem of evil undos some of the major theology seems rather beside the point.
2.Starboy: Neither have I. It is not exaclty an atheist argument. An atheist would never even try to fathom the properties of god until there was a god to fathom.
Stick to topics that you know about.
1 Timothy 2:5
SNPete, perhaps you would like to advance the debate.
Here is another one: competing explanations.Quote by: SNPete
1) We all see the universe.
2) We all want to explain it.
God is one explanation. Science is another. There are others.
What criterion should be used to prefer one explanation over another?
It is not as if science has not in its history considered the god explanation. Why do you think it is no longer considered to be a preferred explanation of science?
Truthfully, Starboy, it all boils down to what we believe. Each of us needs to look at what we believe and ask ourselves why we believe what we do. Can we honestly say to ourselves that we believe what we do, because we have examined all sides of the issue and arrived at our place of belief with an open mind.Quote by: Starboy
So why is it that some of us say there is a God and others don't? I assume that you and I have approached the issue of God with the above criteria. So why do we see things different? I wax philosphical. Maybe, for a moment, we should put aside our views on the matter of God and explore why we see the issue of God different.
Issue 2, science. I think science moved away from God, because for years superstition and religion were tied together and science despelled superstition. Science is only interested in the proveable. Since God cannot be proved, science does not want to deal with God. Even though superstition is gone science still views religion with skepticism. Science can't explain everything. Neither can religion. I believe that science and religion together can expain everything. Science the how and religion the why. Anyway, what do you think?
I am going to bed now. Talk to you tomorrow.
Last edited by SNPete; 17th June 2005 at 02:10 AM.
1 Timothy 2:5
I think you need to learn more about science. Science chose other explanation than god because it has a criterion for preferring explanations. It has experiment on nature. If there are two competing explanations one can try to figure out what they say should happen, you can find where they differ and you can go look at nature to see which does the better job. If you apply this to your explanations over an over and over you get explanations that do increasingly better jobs at making predictions about reality.
Fact is, explanations based on supernatural constructs like god suck when compared to many other explanations.
The issue really boils down to this. God advocates have put forth an explanation of reality based on supernatural constructs. If they claim that these constructs are real then they are open to investigation. If what they can predict is no better than no explanation at all then one must ask oneself, "Why are you holding to god as an explanation for anything?"
There is a basic conflict between religion and science since religion claims to explain reality and science tries to explain reality and the explanations are not matching. They are not matching at all. Something is very rotten. However everyone knows that science does a dang fine job at what it can explain, you are typing on just one of millions of examples. If god sucks at explaining reality then what are god advocates using it for? You and I both know that answer.
HOLY SHIT! It happend again... complexity... alright... so instead of takeing the light example which is one of the most complicated things in all of physics to describe it being a self propagating wave at such high speads that it's increadable, the mathematics behind it ... well here 1 / sqrt(epp0 * mu 0)... now lets deal with mathmatical applications... involing open line integrals ... intence partial diffs... and thats only in the nice plane. Now you did what I really hate... and I don't know why you get your jollies this way... you took my entire argument and broke it down into one thing that you don't undertsnad... that I dont understand and that very few phycists truly do understand... but people do. I don't care if god exists or not... I don't care if it's a voilent god... if there is a god... if there is it doesn't care about us. I am a mear mortal, I have a shelf life... I am going to spend it trying to understand the world not make up BS about everything I dont understand and calling it gods willing. You ignore all poitns that I make and call me stupid for having them no less becasue you think it's wierd that I don't worship your god. Nothing will work with this debate. I have told you how I feal and why I do and the best you can come up with is "oh it's too hard god must have done it", except that that argument keeps on dieing with such wonderful people as Neuton and Galalaeo and Enstien... Plank, Gauss, Avagadro, Hawking... this is science... this is not dissproving or proving god... you can twist all data you feal like to show whatever you want... but it's the math that is flawed. My whole point is this: I can not see feal touch taste or acnolage any form of god. I see feal touch taste and acknolage math and physics and chemestry biology...and the like. I ask you for proof and you give me it's too complex for random events. Light does random events and eventuilly bcomes ordered and predictable... it does this in some of the most complex systems in the universe. Debate me?
Huh? Your point? What a ramble. Care to clairify? Damn, you have poor spelling. I know, don't post when you're drunk! Tell me, at which post did you lose it? Care to talk about it?Quote by: asterix404
Last edited by SNPete; 18th June 2005 at 01:09 AM.
1 Timothy 2:5
Quote by: SNPete
so you are saying that you found comfort in believing God......so your body gives you good feelings.......Thinking about something gives you good feelings............I am glad you recieve atleas some physical pleasure from your imaginary friend....I guess you arent that insane.
Maybe because Starboy is more cynical, understands that the universe is complex, and that God is so far down the line of understanding.Quote by: SNPete
What do you do in your every day life SNpete? During your dailylife, what clues indicate that God is out there? Eating? Sleeping? Pooping? Your life is so basic that the truth of God is no where to be found. If you want to find God, hop on the science band wagen, because scientists are making a proactive movement to find the truth of reality. Now of course I am talking about the same reality this God of your's designed. So, like I said if you really want to know God start reading science shit. I don't think you are using the best of your human abilities that your creator gave you, so I instead of PRAYING 5 hail mary's and reading a 2000 year old story tail - get your lazy ass up and read a biology book or two and actually have to try and put hard brain work so you could understand it.
Science the how and religion the why?Quote by: SNPete
Science will find your God before you do; then when scientist's find your god they are going to ask the same question as religion......why? SNpete asks if the scientists would look back on religions out take? or would they be closed mind and not think about it? And to tell you the truth Pete, I sure as fuck would, so you should take your closed minded liberal ideas and shuve it up your ass. But like I said, my day doesnt even compare to a day in God's shoes, so I aint worried about it. Thinking about God is evil - it gives me headaches. It is funny I expierence physical pain from thinking about something that has the same random chance of happening, ya know, like a broken up watch being, shaken in a bag, and perfectly assembled.
So what you going to say about my argument? Scientists wont find God first because God will keep changing the Universe? I guess scientists will go to hell since God don't like them...For christ sakes, for some reason they are not allowed to find him. I am sorry Pete, go do your cult thing while I do my smoke thing.
The lack of civility in this debate is discouraging .
I'm thinking it's the anonymity of the forum that allows people to speak in ways that would be completely unacceptable normal society.so you are saying that you found comfort in believing God......so your body gives you good feelings.......Thinking about something gives you good feelings............I am glad you recieve atleas
some physical pleasure from your imaginary friend....I guess you arent that insane.