It is interesting however to see Yahweh take up this struggle with Ba'al as a means to usurp Ba'al into it's own persona.. You can even see where they edited the divine council to equate Yahweh with El Elyon, and EL in the duet.:Yam was the god of the sea, and became popular in the Ancient Egyptian times. Yam, from the Canaanite word Yam, (Hebrew ים) meaning "Sea", also written "Yaw", is one name of the Ugaritic god of Rivers and Sea. Also titled Judge Nahar ("Judge River"), he is also one of the 'ilhm (Elohim) or sons of El, the name given to the Levantine pantheon. Others dispute the existence of the alternative names, claiming it is a mistranslation of a damaged tablet. Despite linguistic overlap, theologically this god is not a part of the later subregional monotheistic theology, but rather is part of a broader and archaic Levantine polytheism.
Yam is the deity of the primordial chaos and represents the power of the sea untamed and raging; he is seen as ruling storms and the disasters they wreak. The gods cast out Yam from the heavenly mountain Sappan (modern Jebel Aqra; "Sappan" is cognate to Tsephon. The seven-headed dragon Lotan is associated closely with him and the serpent is frequently used to describe him. He is the Canaanite equivalent of the Sumerian Tiamat, the primordial mother goddess.
Of all the gods, despite being the champion of El, Yam holds special hostility against Baal Hadad, son of Dagon. Yam is a deity of the sea and his palace is in the abyss associated with the depths, or Biblical tehwom, of the oceans. (This is not to be confused with the abode of Mot, the ruler of the netherworlds.) In Ugaritic texts, Yam's special enemy Hadad is also known as the "king of heaven" and the "first born son" of El
From the dead sea scrolls
This was of course edited to what you find in the duet:"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of El. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
I fixed it so you can see where it was edited..And is further supported by:"When the Most High (EL ELyon) divided their inheritance to the nations,
When He separated the sons of Adam,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the children of "Israel" (not Israel but---> EL).
For the LORD’s (Yahweh's) portion is His people;
Jacob is the place of His inheritance."
Source:"son of EL" as this Ugarit Canaanite text (KTU 1.1IV 14):
Hence translated as:The Israelites in history and tradition Niels Peter Lemche - 1998 - 246 "Maybe also the Ugaritic passage KTU 1.1:IV:14-15 should be included in the discussion: sm . bny . yw . ilt, translated by Mark S. Smith in Simon B. Parker, ed., Ugaritic Narrative Poetry (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1997), 89 "of the son of god, Yahweh."
This is further supported in the Psalms:"son of EL" as this Ugarit Canaanite text (KTU 1.1IV 14) shows: sm . bny . yw . ilt: "The name of the son of god, Yahweh."
Psalm 89:6:"Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of EL, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength."
And supported here as well to where Yahweh stands in a council of GODs in Psalms:"For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh, who among the sons of EL is like Yahweh"
You can also see the Threat Yahweh makes to the assembly of GOD's in Psalms to over throw the throne and be claimed King, and the GOD MOST HIGH. And this assembly of the GOD's can still be found in Genesis 1:26:Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”:
2“How long will youa defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5“They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
A council based on this:26 Then God said, “Let aUs make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them crule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Basically those who wrote the bible edited it, and even changed the out come where Ba'al loses and Yam takes control..But in this case, "Yahweh" instead of Yam. So why the drastic altering of this mythology if not to usurp it and establish Yahwism and Yahweh in its place? It's clearly been edited and reformatted to make Yahweh appear to first be equated as one of the son's of EL and then be equated to be GOD of Abraham ect when it is not. This has the hallmarks of usurping the Canaanite Pantheon by a Yahwist cult movement. It that seems to be possibly Egyptian in origin as we can see here in this source:In the Epic of Ba'al El king of the Gods appoints Yam to fight Hadad, Baal of heaven. KTU 1.2 iv reads:
"I, myself, Kindly `El the Beneficent, have taken you upon my hands.
I proclaim your name.
Yam is your name,
Your name is Beloved of `El, Yam."
"[Go against] the hand of the Mighty Baal Most High (´Aliyan Ba´al ) —
Because he spoke ill to me —
[And] drive him from the throne of his kingship,
From the resting place,
the cushion on the seat of his dominion.
But if then you do not drive him from his throne of kingship,
from the seat of his dominion,
He will beat you like...
He slaughters oxen and sheep.
He fells bulls and fatted rams, yearling calves,
sheep by the flock, he sacrifices kids."
Now Mighty Baal, son of Dagon, desired the kingship of the Gods. He contended with Prince Yam-Nahar, the Son of El. But Kindly El, Father Shunem, decided the case in favour of His son; He gave the kingship to Prince Yam. He gave the power to Judge Nahar.
Fearsome Yam came to rule the Gods with an iron fist. He caused Them to labor and toil under His reign. They cried unto Their mother, Asherah, Lady of the Sea. They convinced Her to confront Yam, to interceed in Their behalf.
Asherah went into the presence of Prince Yam. She came before Judge Nahar. She begged that He release His grip upon the Gods Her sons. But Mighty Yam declined Her request. She offered favours to the Tyrant. But Powerful Nahar softened not His heart.
Finally, Kindly Asherah, who loves Her children, offered Herself to the God of the Sea. She offered Her own body to the Lord of Rivers.
Yam-Nahar agreed to this, and Asherah returned to the Source of the Two Rivers. She went home to the court of El. She came before the Divine Council, and spoke of Her plan to the Gods Her children.
Baal was infuriated by Her speech. He was angered at the Gods who would allow such a plot. He would not consent to surrendering Great Asherah to the Tyrant Yam-Nahar. He swore to the Gods that He would destroy Prince Yam.
He would lay to rest the tyranny of Judge Nahar.
Ba'al Hadad warns Yam that the gods will not allow him to usurp the throne of heaven. In KTU 1.2 iii, he warns:
"From your throne of kingship you shall be driven,
from the seat of your dominion cast out!
On your head be Ayamari (Driver) O Yam,
Between your shoulders Yagarish (Chaser), O Judge Nahar
May Horon split open, O Yam,
may Horon smash your head,
´Athtart-Name-of-the-Lord thy skull!
After a great war in heaven involving many of the gods, Yam is roundly defeated:
And the weapon springs from the hand of Baal,
Like a raptor from between his fingers.
It strikes the skull of Prince Yam,
between the eyes of Judge Nahar.
Yahm collapses, he falls to the earth;
His joints quiver, and his spine shakes.
Thereupon Baal drags out Yam and would rend him to pieces;
he would make an end of Judge Nahar.
However, Athtart pleads for Yam, who acknowledges the Lord as king of heaven:
Then up speaks Yam: "Lo, I am as good as dead! Surely, Baal now reigns as king!"
Hadad holds a great feast, but not long afterwards he battles Mot (death) and through his mouth he descends to his realm below the earth. Yet like Yam, Death too is defeated and in h. I AB iii the Lord arises from the dead:
For alive is Mighty Baal,
Revived is the Prince, Master of Earth."
'El calls to the Virgin Anat:
"Hearken, O maiden Anat!"[nb 1]
The Origin of Yahweh as Yamm, Canaanite god of the sea is likely due to the above, and that they Yahwist movement likely derived from this source.. Even the story of Moses parting the sea likely came from the Egyptian story known as the the Golden Lotus."In its earliest attestations the name Yah refers to the moon as satellite of the earth. Yah then becomes conceptualised as a lunar deity, iconographically anthropomorphic but whose manifestations, from the hieroglyphic evidence, can include the crescent of the new moon, the ibis and the falcon- comparable to the other moon deities, Thoth and Khonsu. It is probable that contact with Middle Eastern states in Palestine, Syria and Babylonia was instrumental in the development of Yah as a deity. Certainly the zenith of Yah's popularity lay in the period following the Middle Kingdom when immigration from the Levant was high and princes from Palestine, knoiwn as the Hyksos, rulers, dominated Egypt. These foreigners may well have looked for a lunardeity analogous to the Akkadian moon-god Sin who had an important temple at Harran in north Syria. Strangely, it is with the Theban royal family eventually responsible for the expulsion of these alien rulers that there is a difinite inclination for names involving the mood-god Yah. The daughter of Seqenenre Tao I (Dynasty XVII) is Yah-hotep ('Yah is content'). The founder of Dynasty XVIII was called Yahmose ('Yah is born') and the same element is in the nameo f his wife Yahmose-Nefertari. Most likely the Middle Eastern deity who gave the stimulus to the adoption of Yah is the influence behind the name Kamose, the brother of Yahmose, who began the final thrust against the Hyksos domination. Kamose ('the bull is born') might be the Egyptian equivalent of the epithet applied to Sin describing him as a 'young bull... with strong horns' (i.e. the tips of the crescent moon). This imagery would be totally compatible with the Egyptian concept of the pharaoh as an invinvible bull. In the tomb of Tuthmosis III (Dynasty XVII), the pharaoh whose campaigns took him to the banks of the Euphrates river, there is a scene where the king is accompanied by his mother and three queens, including Sit-Yah 'daughter of the moon-god'. Traces of his cult beyond this period are sporadic."
Yah, was the name of the god of the Midians into which Moses supposedly married by marrying the daughter of a Midian priest. Yah was also the name of the desert god worshipped by the Bedoins. It is likely this name is the same one Canaanites applied to Yamm as Yaw or Yawu. See below:
Yah, was the name of the Egyptian Father god, or moon god. Hebrew monotheism followed the trail blazed by Pharaoh Akenaton who overthrew all the Egyptian gods and goddesses substituting his Aten (only god) Ra (sun god) or Amen (hidden god) Ra as the only god there is. There is considerable evidence linking the story of Moses to Egyptians priests and "habiru" outcasts forced to flee Egypt when the Semitic (read Canaanite) Hyksos Pharaohs lost power then later when Akenaton and his monotheistic revolution went sour.
And it's interesting that most of Christianity seems come from the Egyptians while seemingly usurping the Canaanite Pantheon. And since the Hyksos were likely from Canaan, it seems like these people intended to converge the two.. It's all very vague, but Yam really doesn't seem to be the true origin of Yahweh, but rather used as a tool or deity to inject Yahweh into the Canaanite Pantheon in order to usurp it.Then Zazamankh stood at the stern of the Royal Boat and began to chant great spells and words of power. And presently he held out his wand over the water, and the lake parted as if a piece had been cut out of it with a great sword. The lake here was twenty feet deep, and the piece of water that the magician moved rose up and set itself upon the surface of the lake so that there was a cliff of water on that side forty feet high.
Last edited by TheJackel; 29th November 2012 at 04:40 PM.
Can't argue with you as you're bound and determined to divorce Yamm/Yahweh as the son of EL despite all evidence to the contrary. I know of no scholars who place Yahweh in EL's historic role as God Most High in the Canaanite pantheon which the Israelite/Jews used for their Ahkenaton type of monotheistic revolt against the Canaanite pantheon. That role is plainly seen in Deuteronomy 32 and in Psalm 82. And here's another sinker for your idea that Yahweh is not Yamm. You do know that Judah and Benjamin are combined as opposed to the other 10 Tribes of Israel. Well, linguistically, "Benjamin", like quite a few Hebrew words is deliberately mistranslated to cover pagan origins. "Ben-Jamin" means "Sons of Yamm" which again links Yahweh to Yamm. I suggest you read Prof. Margaret Barker's book, The Great Angel, which shows how Yahweh developed first as the Angel of God, like Jesus' role as Son to God, EL. And we know it is EL because that's who Jesus cries out to from the cross, not Yahweh, but EL. " My EL, my EL,..."
Then you haven't bothered to read my second article..I know of no scholars who place Yahweh in EL's historic role as God Most High in the Canaanite pantheon which the Israelite/Jews used for their Ahkenaton type of monotheistic revolt against the Canaanite pantheon.
I am aware of the efforts to hide the Pagan links..That really doesn't address the issue.. I think someone else said it better than I did:And here's another sinker for your idea that Yahweh is not Yamm. You do know that Judah and Benjamin are combined as opposed to the other 10 Tribes of Israel. Well, linguistically, "Benjamin", like quite a few Hebrew words is deliberately mistranslated to cover pagan origins. "Ben-Jamin" means "Sons of Yamm" which again links Yahweh to Yamm.
Hallelujah, also spelled halleluiah, halleluyah, and the Greek and Latin form alleluia are transliterations of the Hebrew word הללו יה (Modern halleluya, Tiberian halləlûyāh) meaning "Praise ye Yah" or "Praise Jah, you people". The last syllable is from the first two letters of the name of God, YHWH (also transcribed JHVH). "Praise Jah" is therefore a shortened form of "Praise Yahweh" or, in another transliteration of the name, "Praise Jehovah".
Hallelujah is found primarily in the book of Psalms. The word is used in Judaism as part of the Hallel prayers, and in Christian prayer, where it is used in various ways in liturgies. It has been accepted into the English language and has a similar pronunciation in many other languages.We can also note this fact:One of the false gods the Jews worshipped was Yah. This pagan idol has its roots in Babylon and in Egypt. This is the lunar or moon god. In Babylon the moon god is called "Ia" or Ya. It has both a female and a male identity. In Egypt the Babylonian female "Ia or Ya" was changed into a male god and the female god was named "shua" and made the sky god. When a person then combines these forms into Iashua or Yahshua they have made the moon god the sky god. This Babylonian/Egypt deity is also called Baal throughout the Scriptures. The Jews did worshiped the moon god when they apostated into idolatry from the true God Ehyeh asher Ehyeh (Elohim/Adonai). Look up the word moon in Hebrew and it is "yareah" which is the same as "Yahweh." Modern Hebrew spells it different now to distort the real identity of their ancient Yah god. They now spell it "yareach." No matter, real scholars know the truth! The Yah moon god remains controversial. Why? Because scholars are fearful to say the Jewish god Yah is the same as the Babylonian god "Ia-ya" and or the Egyptian moon god Yah.
"yah, jah, ia" is nothing but the moon god. Saying hallelu-jah means praise the moon god.
Aah (Yahh): The Moon-God (Yareach - Hebrew)
excerpted from E.A. Wallis Budge Hieroglyphic Dictionary Vol. I. p.29b
It makes more sense to say Yam was usurped into the persona of Yahweh than to say Yam was Yahweh.. There is simply to much usurping of the Canaanite Pantheon for Yam to be the source idol or deity. Like I said, Yahweh's origins seem to originate with the Egyptian moon GOD Yah only later to usurp the Canaanite Pantheon. And this is because it doesn't make sense for Canaanites to usurp their own Pantheon, or equate Yam to EL / El Elyon much less El-Shaddai.. It sounds more probable that the eviction of the Canaanite Hyksos brought their Egyptian GOD / beliefs with them..Mt Sinai is derived from the word "sin" for moon in Akkadian and Mesopotamian nations. This same name was apparently adopted by the Jews from the semitic connection to these ancient civilization. The original name of Mt Sinai is Mt. Horeb. The name "Horeb" is an ancient word meaning "Lord". Mt Horeb is then the mount of the Lord. Mt Sinai on the other hand means "moon mountain." That is, sacred to the moon god 'sin."
And through Usurping, Yahweh ceased to become a moon GOD, became associated and equated with Yam, and then Equated with EL. Likely with El-shaddai before EL to which is known as an usurper as you will note in my articles. It shows the hallmarks of the process of usurping.
What the....is going on here? Is this whacko central?
Firstly, volcanoes cannot talk. Can we agree on that? Given volcanoes cannot talk, you saying 'if the volcano said that to them...' is a bit weird isn't it?
That verse was written by a human being, as were all the verses. It is a speculative verse....written AS THOUGH it was Yahweh the volcano god speaking. It was utter rubbish made up by supersticious ancient people who delluded themselves, quite understandably, into believing volcanoes housed gods in the summits.
Now, I am prepared.....as much as is humanly possible....for you to tell me where the.....fairies come into it all?
This discussion did not need to become so convoluted. I think a lot of people hanging around forums intentionally make things more complicated than they need to be. Bored maybe? Boring?
The domestication of camels? What the hell has that got to do with the ancient Hebrews, as well as most ancient people, worshipping volcanoes???
Keep it simple stupid.....stick to that saying and you will have a much better chance of decoding religion.
Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.
Just a small colation of volcanic verses....there are hundreds of others......
And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall show the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers. See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. The LORD has given full vent to his wrath; he has poured out his fierce anger. He kindled a fire in Zion that consumed her foundations. I am about to pour out my wrath on you and spend my anger against you. And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain." The LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire. On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. And mount Si'nai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire. And the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
What more needs to be said? The Hebrews worshipped an imaginery volcano god. That much is very very clear. Only someone very high on woo would deny it.
Who's going to deny it now? Go on.......let the bravest one of you step forward.
An accurate depiction of Mt Sinai and the imaginery Yahweh.
“The heart has its reason which reason does not know.” - Blaise Pascal
"chewtabacachewtabacachewtabaca-spit" - Blake Shelton
Why do you assume it was just made up? Why do you not take it at face value? What evidence do you have that it was fanciful? If there is no evidence it was simple story telling, why do you invent the evidence to fit your theory?
Show me the evidence Isaiah 30:27 was not factual, or as factual as can be for ignorant ancients discussing the physical attributes of a volcano, which they assumed was the abode of a deity.