Does religion promote irresponsibility on this Earth by trivializing it?

[Yarn]

If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let’s remember what the real problem was. That we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That’s it. Grow up or die.

Theists often argue that religion promotes moral behavior because it promotes the belief that moral behavior is a prerequisite for entry to heaven. But then the focus isn't on this world, it is on the next world. And it isn't on one's own conscience, it is on what one perceives to be the doctrine of one's religion. In many cases, and in most cases through out history, prevailing religious doctrine has held that nonbelievers should be slaughtered and persecuted. This is still the practice and predominant doctrine in many of the world's poorer areas; and with the proliferation of nuclear weapons in precisely these areas, areas where Islam is used as a rallying cry for international full scale war, areas where blasphemy is a state crime punished with murder, we see an ever greater risk that nuclear weapons will wind up in the hands of those who act on this Earth with abandon because of perceived heavely rewards.

Likewise, in the US and across the Christian world, there are a great many people openly hoping for the "rapture", praying that the time will soon come when a global apocalypse will wipe out mankind. These people make up a significant and politically powerful minority, especially in the US.

In the religious worldview that holds belief and "moral" behavior to be prerequisites for salvation, it makes sense to crush dissent. After all, when someone preaches against your religion or commits adultery or some other victimless sin, by doing so they alter culture and win converts in ways that result in more people going to hell and fewer to heaven. As those places represent infinite paradise and pain, they can be logically used to justify any amount of evil on this Earth.

To what extent is religion therefore responsible for a global pandemic of irresponsibility and callousness when it comes to the real world?

[DragonFly]

Great thread. 'Invisibility Disorder' (my term) threatens the world.

One of the roots of evil is due to religions labeling what is contrary to their flawed 'goods' as being evil.

[Senor Hoint]

The attitude that the Earth was placed here by god for our enjoyment, and so we obviously can't do anything to screw it up in any big way, is almost as much a problem as our ability to screw it up in a big way.

[finder]

To what extent is religion therefore responsible for a global pandemic of irresponsibility and callousness when it comes to the real world?

Religion is an abstract idea incapable of causation on it's own. It takes the flawed thinking of humankind to manipulate others or allow themselves to be manipulated into doing immoral acts. I believe it is this basic flaw of imperfection we have coupled with a general desire to be "good" that brings people to contemplate God in the beginning. Not ignorance of the laws of nature or how they work as most atheists think. If people weren't willing to commit horrible acts of aggression to one another religion would not be able to motivate them in the first place. But people are willing to wrong others, some to a higher degree of viciousness then others but we all have willingingly wronged someone else. Religion doesn't bring about catastrophes no more then say socialism. It's boils down to what people are personally willing to justify for what they see as the greater good. Plain ole socialism has caused just as much pain and suffering for those in some countries in the past as well as presently; who didn't or don't share the same enthusiasm for it that some of the statists had who controlled or are controlling them did. For the same reasons, that being others are willing to justify it.

Religion isn't the enemy atheists or theists for that matter should fear. It's our imperfection and inherent need for redemption that is our enemy.

...or commits adultery or some other victimless sin...

Adultery isn't a victimless sin btw. Haven't you seen what it could do to the person who was cheated on? It can be devastating.

[BlackSheep]

Religion is an abstract idea incapable of causation on it's own.

I disagree religion is an abstract idea. Most religions are very concrete ideas that often contain abstract ideas, but the fundamental ideas are quite clear.

It takes the flawed thinking of humankind to manipulate others or allow themselves to be manipulated into doing immoral acts. I believe it is this basic flaw of imperfection we have coupled with a general desire to be "good" that brings people to contemplate God in the beginning. Not ignorance of the laws of nature or how they work as most atheists think. If people weren't willing to commit horrible acts of aggression to one another religion would not be able to motivate them in the first place. But people are willing to wrong others, some to a higher degree of viciousness then others but we all have willingingly wronged someone else. Religion doesn't bring about catastrophes no more then say socialism. It's boils down to what people are personally willing to justify for what they see as the greater good. Plain ole socialism has caused just as much pain and suffering for those in some countries in the past as well as presently; who didn't or don't share the same enthusiasm for it that some of the statists had who controlled or are controlling them did. For the same reasons, that being others are willing to justify it.

Morality is, on the other hand, often a quite abstract idea.
I don't see religion arising from a desire t be good at all. Religion arises from a desire to understand the universe coupled with natural pattern recognition that does not deal well with certain things.
I agree that religion is more often an excuse than a reason, but often excuses can be the last piece of the puzzle that is needed and I agree religion is not the only thing that is used as an excuse.

Religion isn't the enemy atheists or theists for that matter should fear. It's our imperfection and inherent need for redemption that is our enemy.

I think the big issue is with anyone who thinks they know or are led by those who know what is right and wrong. I agree that communist totalitarian states have done great harm as well and I certainly will not defend them.

Adultery isn't a victimless sin btw. Haven't you seen what it could do to the person who was cheated on? It can be devastating.

You are ignoring the big picture here. Adultery is generally a symptom of a flawed relationship. As much damage can be caused by ending the marriage or just maintaining the status quo. Relationships falling apart are almost always painful.

[Yarn]

I used the word adultery wrong. I meant to refer to premarital sex.

Yes, humans are imperfect, but the degree of their imperfection varies. Does religion frequently promote a carelessness and callousness towards the real world and the suffering of the "other" owing to its focus on the afterlife and divine command?

Humans are imperfect wiith or without religion, the question is whether or not religion, in the way mentioned, makes them worse.

Now, communism and fascism obviously are very similar to what religion is when it is at its worst. They center around murdering the "other" and justify doing so via citation of utopia. Communism and facism posit that if we follow their dictates we will achieve everlasting paradise on Earth, thus justifying any amount of finite evil necessary to achieve the infinite paradise. They are also, like religion, deeply spiritually felt among the devout; tidal waves of emotion and conviction. One might even go as far as to call them secular religions, and I do.

[Senor Hoint]

Yes, if you accept that it can also make people better in other ways.

[Yarn]

The magnitude of that good is outweighed if religion results in apocalyptic outcomes like global warming of several degrees celsius, genocide, or nuclear war.

Callousness and carelessness in the realms of the environment, war, and social good (as defined as caring for the weak) seem to correlate firmly with a country's religiousity. The worst major country in the first world on all of these issues is also the most religious.

[DragonFly]

I encountered all the individual Ones,
The specialized Gods of all the Religions.
They didn’t get along at all, not even for an instant,
For all they had in common was their intolerance
Of the others’ greatly erroneous and unjustifiable beliefs
That clashed with their own, for tolerance as a relief
Was truly NOT an attitude the jealous Gods endorsed.

The followers of each God thought that their own
Irrational embrace of myth trumped the others’ knowns,
And so this led to many of the religious groans.

I watched the Gods battling for a while, steadfast,
In the present, as well as in the distant past,
Their followers’ beliefs scripting the actions,
Conflicts leading to dying for untestable propositions
About where everyone came from and was going to:

Metaphysical Martyrdoms
Conflicted with the Divine Book of Revelations.

Deuteronomy 13:7-11
Stoned those disbelieving in Yahweh,
Killing them, while the Koran eliminated many infidels.

India and Pakistan, different countries domiciled,
Because the beliefs of Islam could not be reconciled

With those of Hinduism, poised at the brink
Of nuclear war, merely because they disagreed, rife,
Over some supernatural ‘facts’ concerning the afterlife.

Karmas ran over Dogmas.

Musharraf suspended Pakistan’s constitution,
To stamp out the growing Islamic militant coalition.

Palestine’s Jews and Muslims scuffled on;
Balkan Orthodox Serbians dueled
With the Catholic Croatians,
As well as with the Bosnian/Albanian Muslims;
Northern Ireland Protestants warred with Catholics;
Sudan Muslims discorded with the Christians;
Sri Lankas’s Sinhalese Buddhists
Went against the Tamil Hindus;
Caucasus Orthodox Russians and Chechen Muslims
Exterminated each other and their kin;

Iraq’s Sunnis and Shias massacred each other
For some very slight dogmatic differences.

I interrupted their skirmishing and said in haste,
“What about tolerance and respect for other faiths?”

They all answered at once and said, in unison’s beef,
“That’s just political talk. If we tolerated other beliefs,
That would be akin to recognizing them readily
As having some credibility, which they certainly do not.

“We are saved and they are all doomed, in peril;
We can’t have them exerting influence in the world.”

“So,” I said, trying to make some small talk,
“I’ve heard that You’ve each written a book
That makes an exclusive claim as to its infallibility.
Congratulations to each of You on being published.
All have made the bestseller list;
However, I have respectfully shelved all of them
Next to the Egyptian Book of the Dead
And Ovid’s Metamorphoses
In the contradictory book and Bible section.

“Hey, how about getting modern and making a film?
I know that a book was a great thing way back,
But a moving picture is worth 10,000 still pictures
Which are in turn each worth a thousand words.”

“Indeed, we will each be divinely inspiring a movie
That will soon be playing in a theater near you.”

“Wait, Guys, I take it back,” I said with alarm,
“Are not all your children doing enough harm
By fighting over your books and morality plays?
Will people now die for another media—the movies?”

They ignored me and fought on, with their kind,
Unable to see but through their own ‘right’ minds,
(Doing the opposite of their teachings of love)
Which they were especially and paradoxically out of.

Unfortunately, they now represented the largest threat
That human kind has ever imposed against itself—
All due to differences regarding some very improbable
And differing notions about the nature of the universe.

[Yarn]

17:40 Praveen Togodia: Leader of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad
They understand the language of saffron power;
They understand the language of guns and cannons;

Today all of India is being held hostage by Islamic terrorism;
And behind the terrorists stands a terrorist state!

Its name is Pakistan and it still exists on the map of the world.

Until Pakistan is wiped off the face of the Earth...
Until Lahore, Rawalpindi, and Islamabad become part of India...
These barbaric Taliban will not let you live in peace!

DO YOU WANT US TO DO TO YOU MUSLIMS, what you have done to us in Kashmir!?

DO YOU WANT THIS TO HAPPEN TO YOU IN INDIA'S 600,000 VILLAGES!!!!?
*mass applause*

[DragonFly]

I picked up some newspapers and magazines:

A suicide bomber blew up a bus and himself as well,
Sending many of the unbelievers straight to Hell,
While assuring himself and 72 friends a place
In Heaven, a double blessing from his Faith.

His family, relatives, and friends gathered, soon,
To celebrate their wonderful good fortune.
The bomber’s death was especially lauded as wise
Because he had proceeded directly to Paradise,
Bypassing the possibly troublesome way
Of the litigation of Judgment Day.

Fighting continued in Kashmir
Due to some perceived insults to Muhammad.

A man was released in Northern Ireland
After claiming to be a Protestant atheist.

A child of Christian Scientists died
Due to the religious refusal of antibiotics.

Extremists sought nuclear formulas
And parts to reduce
The peril of the unbelievers in the world,
Those whose ways are not sanctioned by Allah.

Pope authorizes millions to reach
Children sexually abused by priests.

The recently discovered Gospel of Judas
Suggests he wasn’t really such a bad-ass.

Some nuclear facilities no longer exist in Syria,
About whose disappearance both Syria and Israel
Seem to know nothing about.

Battles rage on over differences in some holy books.

Iran promises to destroy Israel.

President Bush led off his latest speech with
‘In God we trust.”

And in a more than 2000 year-old newspaper:
The Emperor led off his latest speech with
‘In Zeus we trust’.

And, finally, in a future newspaper:
Religious extremists detonate atomic bomb
In Washington, DC;
Nuclear retaliation destroys
Twelve highly populated middle-eastern cities.

World greatly stunned, begins to widely read
'The End of Faith’, ‘The God Delusion’,
And ‘god is Not Great.”

[Senor Hoint]

The magnitude of that good is outweighed if religion results in apocalyptic outcomes like global warming of several degrees celsius, genocide, or nuclear war.

I think the magnitude of the good is outweighed even without all that because I value critical thinking very highly, but yes, you are right.

Callousness and carelessness in the realms of the environment, war, and social good (as defined as caring for the weak) seem to correlate firmly with a country's religiousity. The worst major country in the first world on all of these issues is also the most religious.

I think I prefer to see the religiosity and the failures as symptoms of the same core problem.