Creation existence origins

[Hermenutic]

One thing is certain. You are reading this. You may be at your desk in an airport or library but you are reading this.

Man is a creature that is bound by the nature of his consciousness to figure out how it came to be that he is reading this. Other animals do not seem to be possessed by this form of dementia. Man asks questions.

Most of the explanations he has arrived at have a supernatural premise. An external entity said to be existing completely apart from everything else in existence is said to have made everything. This is commonly called 'Creation' and most religions have an explanation about how this happened.

Evolution has come to be seen as inimical to the notion of God in the traditional conservative Christian worldview. I was taught the earth was made in 6 24 hour days. 144 literal hours. I believed it until I was 58 years old.

In fact just about everything I was taught came to be seen as totally unbelievable to me. Once I began to throw away unbelievable things I realized I could not believe anything in this format of information anymore.

I never gave up God, but now God had no definition for me but that as simply the source of all and that definition not tightly defined.

So you know you are here reading this. How did that happen? Where did all this originate from?

Big bang? Where did that which banged come from? The cosmic chicken or the cosmic egg? No one seriously believes something appears from nothing. That would be magic or miraculous and rational people do not believe in magic or miracles.

So how do you begin to come to grips with your existence? How did life begin? Was there a cause for life? Was life dead before it was alive? Was what is living always alive or did it become alive at a point in time?

Is it possible there was never a beginning? That would imply that endings are impossible also.

In retrospect I can understand why anyone being taught Christianity by fundamentalist Christians might reject it. All I needed to have faith was a believable explanation. In 58 years the church never gave me one.

I still have a conception of a transcendent reality but don't consider myself a vessel of wrath destined to be punished for eternity in really hot fire.

[Charlatan]

I agree that there may never have been a beginning, it just so happened that there was something there instead of there being nothing.

[Elithium]

Read A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing by Lawrence M. Krauss. It explains how the big bang began with out any need of god or an infinite cycle/loop.

It is only assumed that something can't come from nothing because we do not actually understand what "nothing" is. We have no examples and concept of its properties. However, it is not difficult, as Mr. Krauss illustrates, to conceive of a "nothing" that can lead to "something". The balance between matter and anti-matter actually helps support such a creation as well. If the universe was divinely inspired, why is there any need for such a balance?

Nothing can lead to a void. A void can lead to matter and energy. These things can (maybe must?) happen with out violating the laws of thermodynamics.

[Hermenutic]

I may have seen a documentary by that name. Yes 'nothing' is hard to achieve. Even the bible account of creation starts with a description of the pre-existing earth. It is described in detail as having no form at all and being completely empty. This reminds me of what the Chinese refer to as the Tao. The Tao is animated with Chi, a form of universal energy, the earth in the creation account of the bible is animated by information spoken. I had been taught that God made the world from nothing but the bible describes the world prior to creation and if something can be described and referred to it must already exist. But it is said to exist in a state with few identifying characteristics.

Read A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing by Lawrence M. Krauss. It explains how the big bang began with out any need of god or an infinite cycle/loop.

It is only assumed that something can't come from nothing because we do not actually understand what "nothing" is. We have no examples and concept of its properties. However, it is not difficult, as Mr. Krauss illustrates, to conceive of a "nothing" that can lead to "something". The balance between matter and anti-matter actually helps support such a creation as well. If the universe was divinely inspired, why is there any need for such a balance?

Nothing can lead to a void. A void can lead to matter and energy. These things can (maybe must?) happen with out violating the laws of thermodynamics.

[Hermenutic]

What would the implications be if what existed always existed? Would consciousness also always exist.

I agree that there may never have been a beginning, it just so happened that there was something there instead of there being nothing.

[Charlatan]

What would the implications be if what existed always existed? Would consciousness also always exist.

Well, if the universe simply was there instead of not being there, that would mean that instead of us looking for why it is there, we should be looking for how it is there, yes? If the universe just was a spiral of space, collapsing in on itself as waves do, and we know there are waves in science, then it might have just settled down and started to produce things inside of it.

I am not so keen on a big bang as with that there would be a push force instead of what we have as a pull force.

If you have not disagreed thus far, then let me introduce to you my idea of cosnciousness. If we are to look at ourselves as animals, then the reason we ask questions, as you pointed out, would be to me, that we are more aware of the world around us due to different chemicals in the brain that focus on fear. if we are to look at ourselves without the notion of hocus pocus, so to speak, then that is the difference between us and an animal, that we are afraid so ask questions. We all have brains, and the animals around us have heightened hearing and sight, so, where they developed there, we developed as to be afriad, being omnivores that dwelled in caves, we would be afraid of all the other species that were so much more dangerous and capable.

If there is a case of conscious that gets to the point where we realise self, this is at the moment a relay brain function, and then that would mean that it is passed down by our parents.

I disagree with evolution because there is never in the history of the world a species that developed by chance. The way evolution stands, and what is taught in schools, is that things mutate by chance and replace those that came befor them. This would mean that if a koula sprouted a third eye, then all koulas would eventually have one through mutation or something. It is the nature of nature to weed out the irregularities in the animal kingdom, so these first ones would never have had the chanc e to mate unless they were superior to the prior ones. With all that in mind, what are the chances of having a mutated thing replicated enough to become the dominant species 'brand', mate with similar ones, and wipe out the previous ones?

Now, something in nature that is tried and trusted is repetition. If you were to take a muscle and exercise it, it will remember that excercise and train itself. If this is natural, and chance mutations are a strech, then may i suggest that the animals to evolve would need some 'stress' to mutate at all in the right direction, and, let's face it, everything fits into it's environment pretty well.

How i come up to god is that energy was recirculating, like a muscle under repeated stress, and then the energy started remembering things, forming a mind, and asking questions due to fear of things that it could not 'feel'. Then it created and guided life to evolve in the way that best suited it.

Now, relating to conscious, i would say that the consciousness of dolphins mimics ours. They are carnivores though, and fear nothing being superior in manouverability to sharks, and would not need to be afraid. If there is nothing to be afraid of, then why this heightened sense of fear?

As a study, i would suggest that we place mirrors in the cribs of babies. We should then attend to them and see who stares into the mirror first, then gauge their levels of fear based on what they reject and accept based on where they are now, as that will show whether a heightened sense of fear or pessimism is needed for the person to become conscious?

Well, that is just an idea.

[Hermenutic]

Well you've said a lot. I do not disagree with much of it and in the way I understand it we are just trying to make sense of having come to find ourselves conscious and heading to the grave.

I have a gut feeling there is more than meets the eye to the present experience. Plato thought so too. So I have good company in this madness.

I had an interesting and still developing examination in consciousness going on at present. Last summer 3 feral kittens were born under my trailer. The year before two kittens were born there. I witnessed the hard life of the feral cats which I began to feed. I witnessed their society. There was an old yellow tom cat a warrior by the looks of him he would often be gone for weeks and return mangled and bloody. But the two kittens frolicked with him and he took their care upon them. They played just the way you see lion prides playing in nature films.

While observing them it was obvious there was some kind of association that humans cherish among themselves.

This year after seeing the fate of last years kittens ( a feral cat needs 4 mice a day) I decided to entice the litter in the house to save them from the experience of suffering and hardship I knew they would experience.

This is where the lesson began. I became acutely aware of their presence as conscious agents who were desperately trying to adjust to a new alien and frightening environment. It took 2 or 3 months inside for them to begin to get comfortable with me and not run and hide when I moved around. They understood right away I was in charge of the food supply.

But when they began to get used to me it was obvious they were making accommodations to me and their situation in leaps in bounds so now they wake me in the morning, sleep with me, and come and sit around the chair looking for kitty treats.

I was fascinated by the process because these kittens were so wild they could not be approached and now they have adapted and their consciousness powered by their cat intelligence is an ongoing revelation to me.

I tend to take a Zen kind of approach based on the precept or goal of seeing what 'is', and then trusting my mind to find an acceptable explanation for it.

Well, if the universe simply was there instead of not being there, that would mean that instead of us looking for why it is there, we should be looking for how it is there, yes? If the universe just was a spiral of space, collapsing in on itself as waves do, and we know there are waves in science, then it might have just settled down and started to produce things inside of it.

I am not so keen on a big bang as with that there would be a push force instead of what we have as a pull force.

If you have not disagreed thus far, then let me introduce to you my idea of cosnciousness. If we are to look at ourselves as animals, then the reason we ask questions, as you pointed out, would be to me, that we are more aware of the world around us due to different chemicals in the brain that focus on fear. if we are to look at ourselves without the notion of hocus pocus, so to speak, then that is the difference between us and an animal, that we are afraid so ask questions. We all have brains, and the animals around us have heightened hearing and sight, so, where they developed there, we developed as to be afriad, being omnivores that dwelled in caves, we would be afraid of all the other species that were so much more dangerous and capable.

If there is a case of conscious that gets to the point where we realise self, this is at the moment a relay brain function, and then that would mean that it is passed down by our parents.

I disagree with evolution because there is never in the history of the world a species that developed by chance. The way evolution stands, and what is taught in schools, is that things mutate by chance and replace those that came befor them. This would mean that if a koula sprouted a third eye, then all koulas would eventually have one through mutation or something. It is the nature of nature to weed out the irregularities in the animal kingdom, so these first ones would never have had the chanc e to mate unless they were superior to the prior ones. With all that in mind, what are the chances of having a mutated thing replicated enough to become the dominant species 'brand', mate with similar ones, and wipe out the previous ones?

Now, something in nature that is tried and trusted is repetition. If you were to take a muscle and exercise it, it will remember that excercise and train itself. If this is natural, and chance mutations are a strech, then may i suggest that the animals to evolve would need some 'stress' to mutate at all in the right direction, and, let's face it, everything fits into it's environment pretty well.

How i come up to god is that energy was recirculating, like a muscle under repeated stress, and then the energy started remembering things, forming a mind, and asking questions due to fear of things that it could not 'feel'. Then it created and guided life to evolve in the way that best suited it.

Now, relating to conscious, i would say that the consciousness of dolphins mimics ours. They are carnivores though, and fear nothing being superior in manouverability to sharks, and would not need to be afraid. If there is nothing to be afraid of, then why this heightened sense of fear?

As a study, i would suggest that we place mirrors in the cribs of babies. We should then attend to them and see who stares into the mirror first, then gauge their levels of fear based on what they reject and accept based on where they are now, as that will show whether a heightened sense of fear or pessimism is needed for the person to become conscious?

Well, that is just an idea.

[Charlatan]

Well you've said a lot. I do not disagree with much of it and in the way I understand it we are just trying to make sense of having come to find ourselves conscious and heading to the grave.

I have a gut feeling there is more than meets the eye to the present experience. Plato thought so too. So I have good company in this madness.

I had an interesting and still developing examination in consciousness going on at present. Last summer 3 feral kittens were born under my trailer. The year before two kittens were born there. I witnessed the hard life of the feral cats which I began to feed. I witnessed their society. There was an old yellow tom cat a warrior by the looks of him he would often be gone for weeks and return mangled and bloody. But the two kittens frolicked with him and he took their care upon them. They played just the way you see lion prides playing in nature films.

While observing them it was obvious there was some kind of association that humans cherish among themselves.

This year after seeing the fate of last years kittens ( a feral cat needs 4 mice a day) I decided to entice the litter in the house to save them from the experience of suffering and hardship I knew they would experience.

This is where the lesson began. I became acutely aware of their presence as conscious agents who were desperately trying to adjust to a new alien and frightening environment. It took 2 or 3 months inside for them to begin to get comfortable with me and not run and hide when I moved around. They understood right away I was in charge of the food supply.

But when they began to get used to me it was obvious they were making accommodations to me and their situation in leaps in bounds so now they wake me in the morning, sleep with me, and come and sit around the chair looking for kitty treats.

I was fascinated by the process because these kittens were so wild they could not be approached and now they have adapted and their consciousness powered by their cat intelligence is an ongoing revelation to me.

I tend to take a Zen kind of approach based on the precept or goal of seeing what 'is', and then trusting my mind to find an acceptable explanation for it.

That is a great story.

[Hermenutic]

Another interesting feature is that I had two adult cats already. One a female and one a male. The female immediately began to make me aware of cat or kitten related needs I had overlooked. For one, the kittens mother was one of the previous years kittens and she and her other sibling come to be fed on the porch. The older female is aware when they arrive to be fed and will come and alert me to the need.

The kittens look at their mother but I do not know if they recognize her as such or not. But it is clear that the female cat is, without qualification, acting as a liaison between the outside cats and me. This implies an active consciousness that is intelligent enough to bridge the gap of a species and communicate effectively.

[Charlatan]

You have a lot of cats.

[Hermenutic]

5. Plus I feed two who do not come in and the neighbors dog who steals their food.

You have a lot of cats.

[Charlatan]

I see you ponder existence. I always said that if it reacts, as everything reacts to things around it, at any level, then it exists. It exists because of a duality of reactions, proving that not only does the first thing exist, but the second thing too.

If it were all a 'dream' or 'illusion', then it exists somewhere, as even in the mind, these things cause reactions. If we observe our universe, then we see a whole lot of more reactive space evolving as the universe grows in size.