Evolution

[Peter]

It will only work with some intelligence, forces, laws etc, to make it work. 13.7 or 15 billion years in its self, does nothing. Time is time, it needs forces within it to make things happen. You don't seem to appreciate the odds of all this at all

I don't think you appreciate how long 15 thousand million years is.

[Peter]

I don't have a problem with the multiverse personally, so no, I am not closed minded. But the point was that you are putting forward things you cannot see but do not believe in a god you cannot see

I can't see gravity but I believe in it. I can't see any god and I don't believe any exist.

Do you see no difference between gravity and gods? Why I believe one exists and the other doesn't even though they're both invisible?

Maybe it's confusing because I think some things I can't see are a possibility. Is that it?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

How can you define a system with equations that is not predictable?

No, how do you know that your description of what a universe without an intelligence guiding its development would look like?

[truthreality]

No, how do you know that your description of what a universe without an intelligence guiding its development would look like?

I don't think a universe without design is possible. I don't see the big bang happening without intention. I don't see any creation without design.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I don't think a universe without design is possible. I don't see the big bang happening without intention. I don't see any creation without design.

And are you able to demonstrate this, or is this something akin to my held belief that life probably exists elsewhere in the universe?

[truthreality]

And are you demonstrate this, or is this something akin to my held belief that life probably exists elsewhere in the universe?

This is a personal opinion from how I observe the universe and the way it works. I think the possibility of life else where on the planet is high especially if the universe is by design. This is a personal opinion as well. If life can originate on this small planet in the little region in a grand universe possibly one of many universes I think there is probably life on other planets. It's simple probability.

[Jack]

I don't see any creation without design.

I don't doubt that. We humans are pattern-seeking creatures. Our survival as a species has depended in large part on our penchant for finding patterns and imposing purpose on nature, even where we have no evidence it exists.

[truthreality]

I don't doubt that. We humans are pattern-seeking creatures. Our survival as a species has depended in large part on our penchant for finding patterns and imposing purpose on nature, even where we have no evidence it exists.

I think our ability to find pattern means that patterns exist. All scientific laws describe patterns. No patterns, no scientifc laws. Natural sciences deal with the natural world through scientific methods. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy all are natural sciences. Thanks to each one of these sciences we have been able to describe, predict and explain why certain observable phenomena happen in nature.

[minorwork]

I am making the case that the earth is both intelligible and guided by intelligence. The only reason you have access to sunlight and oxygen is because it is provided for you. On top of this your body does the breathing for you. The majority of the time you are not consciously breathing, it is an automatic function. Why you ask? To keep you alive. Yes. The earth provides for you with the purpose of keeping you alive. You are not creating oxygen. You are not creating sunlight. You are not creating food. All of these have been provided to you before you were capable to analyze why they exist in the first place. Seeing purpose and design to the universe does not equate with lack of freedom.

Not saying you can't see purpose and design since that is how we're growed. Just that how we've been growed to organize our observations as cause and effect patterns, does not obligate the universe to our organizational prowess. Our growed from previous survivor perceptions act as an interface to reality in the same fashion as the computer screen shields us from the true functioning of the computer. As it happens, true perceptions having no reproductive advantage are driven to extinction in favor of species specific interfaces that are selected for.

The point is that reality is not bound by how we perceive it. Mighty convenient for us though as far as surviving goes. Seems plain that once past breeding age the great providing intelligence that you propose responsible for our "intelligent" design could care less about us.

So why does the Great Intelligence quit providing us what it takes to live? Does IT get tired? Lose interest? Does IT run out of intelligence?

[truthreality]

Not saying you can't see purpose and design since that is how we're growed. Just that how we've been growed to organize our observations as cause and effect patterns, does not obligate the universe to our organizational prowess. Our growed from previous survivor perceptions act as an interface to reality in the same fashion as the computer screen shields us from the true functioning of the computer. As it happens, true perceptions having no reproductive advantage are driven to extinction in favor of species specific interfaces that are selected for.

The point is that reality is not bound by how we perceive it. Mighty convenient for us though as far as surviving goes. Seems plain that once past breeding age the great providing intelligence that you propose responsible for our "intelligent" design could care less about us.

So why does the Great Intelligence quit providing us what it takes to live? Does IT get tired? Lose interest? Does IT run out of intelligence?

I don't agree that our main purpose is to survive and reproduce. Obviously survival and reproduction are important and necessary but they are basic functions. Such is like saying that our main purpose is to consume food and breathe oxygen. The previous are simply basic physiological needs. Is aging bad? Does the universe stop taking care of us as we get older?:

Researchers from Warwick Medical School at the University of Warwick found that participants reported a better mental quality of life as they reached middle age, despite experiencing a decrease in physical quality of life.

“It’s obvious that people’s physical quality of life deteriorates as they age, but what is interesting is that their mental wellbeing doesn’t also deteriorate – in fact it increases,” Dr Kandal Ngianga-Bakwin said in a statement.

People, studies show, behave differently at different ages. Older people have fewer rows and come up with better solutions to conflict. They are better at controlling their emotions, better at accepting misfortune and less prone to anger. In one study, for instance, subjects were asked to listen to recordings of people supposedly saying disparaging things about them. Older and younger people were similarly saddened, but older people less angry and less inclined to pass judgment, taking the view, as one put it, that “you can’t please all the people all the time.”

The results, published online May 17 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, were good news for old people, and for those who are getting old. On the global measure, people start out at age 18 feeling pretty good about themselves, and then, apparently, life begins to throw curve balls. They feel worse and worse until they hit 50. At that point, there is a sharp reversal, and people keep getting happier as they age. By the time they are 85, they are even more satisfied with themselves than they were at 18.

In eastern cultures the elderly are revered because of their age due to wisdom and knowledge.

[Medensis]

I think our ability to find pattern means that patterns exist. All scientific laws describe patterns. No patterns, no scientifc laws. Natural sciences deal with the natural world through scientific methods. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy all are natural sciences. Thanks to each one of these sciences we have been able to describe, predict and explain why certain observable phenomena happen in nature.

What part requires a designer other than designer logic?

[Medensis]

Is aging bad? Does the universe stop taking care of us as we get older?:

Researchers from Warwick Medical School at the University of Warwick found that participants reported a better mental quality of life as they reached middle age, despite experiencing a decrease in physical quality of life.

“It’s obvious that people’s physical quality of life deteriorates as they age, but what is interesting is that their mental wellbeing doesn’t also deteriorate – in fact it increases,” Dr Kandal Ngianga-Bakwin said in a statement.

People, studies show, behave differently at different ages. Older people have fewer rows and come up with better solutions to conflict. They are better at controlling their emotions, better at accepting misfortune and less prone to anger. In one study, for instance, subjects were asked to listen to recordings of people supposedly saying disparaging things about them. Older and younger people were similarly saddened, but older people less angry and less inclined to pass judgment, taking the view, as one put it, that “you can’t please all the people all the time.”

The results, published online May 17 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, were good news for old people, and for those who are getting old. On the global measure, people start out at age 18 feeling pretty good about themselves, and then, apparently, life begins to throw curve balls. They feel worse and worse until they hit 50. At that point, there is a sharp reversal, and people keep getting happier as they age. By the time they are 85, they are even more satisfied with themselves than they were at 18.

In eastern cultures the elderly are revered because of their age due to wisdom and knowledge.

Perhaps I'm missing something but what does that have to do with anything we're talking about?