Imagine

[Questatement]

Check again. Most of what you disregarded were my questions giving you the opportunity to substantiate your position at a higher level than I beleive you have done in the past.

You're welcome even though you did not accept my offer.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Check again. Most of what you disregarded were my questions giving you the opportunity to substantiate your position at a higher level than I beleive you have done in the past.

You're welcome even though you did not accept my offer.

I disregarded your questions because I got to the point where I realized I was trying to argue with someone who actually wanted to defend owning another person as property, and did so in order to try and defend the bible. I was truly stunned.

The simple fact is that your view of morality is skewed, and I simply dont give a fuck what you think anymore.

[Questatement]

It seems that the moral of your story is that, if there is an abuse of power within a hierarchal system (or potential for abuse?), that system is by default evil and should be discarded.

This leaves me wondering what level of anarchy would exist in your 'perfect' world.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

It seems that the moral of your story is that, if there is an abuse of power within a hierarchal system (or potential for abuse?), that system is by default evil and should be discarded.

This leaves me wondering what level of anarchy would exist in your 'perfect' world.

thats the spirit! argue a strawman so you dont have to actually take on the real point.

[Questatement]

thats the spirit! argue a strawman so you dont have to actually take on the real point.

Then tell me, suppose a man buys a slave woman to make her his wife and lavishes the best form of love on her that a man is capable of.

Where do you find fault there?

[Peter]

Then tell me, suppose a man buys a slave woman to make her his wife and lavishes the best form of love on her that a man is capable of.

Where do you find fault there?

Do you mean buy a woman and then promote her to an equal and she decides to stay? I have a problem with buying the woman in the first place but no problem after that. I suppose I'd have to say the end doesn't justify the means which seems to be the argument you're making.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Then tell me, suppose a man buys a slave woman to make her his wife and lavishes the best form of love on her that a man is capable of.

Where do you find fault there?

Is it her choice to stay? If she has no choice, then she is still a slave, and i dont really care if he provides her with everything he thinks she wants, its still slavery, and she is still being treated as property. It would be no different from buying a pet in that case.

If she does have the ability to leave, then she is no longer a slave. However, im with Peter on this one. buying a slave to use as a wife is despicable, even with good intentions. Its forcing the situation on the woman, without her choice.

But your example is moot, because by far the vast majority of cases werent this, and you know it.

Could you just be a human being and admit that slavery is simply wrong? That the bible was just wrong when it put down specific prescriptions on how to enslave people and that it was ok to beat a slave as long as they didnt die within one or two days?

(oh, and yes, the bible was that vague when it came to the life of a slave. It was ok for the master to beat the slave as long as the slave didnt die within one or two days. I guess because god finds someone dying over 3 days funny)

[ozzie666]

suppose a man buys a slave woman to make her his wife and lavishes the best form of love on her that a man is capable of.

Where do you find fault there?

buying a human is wrong. but in retrospect how often do you think a person has bought a slave just to love her, or coincidentally falls in love with her? very, very rarely i'd suspect

[Questatement]

Do you mean buy a woman and then promote her to an equal and she decides to stay? I have a problem with buying the woman in the first place but no problem after that. I suppose I'd have to say the end doesn't justify the means which seems to be the argument you're making.

Here's one of the problems that I think most people have with the concept of slavery. We in the West have prospered beyond the point where any of us would put ourselves up as 'property' in order to better ourselves or in some cases, survive.

I have a friend in my church who is a tribal elder and a church elder in Burkina Faso. He rotates between home and my church every three months to supervise the fund raising efforts through my church to support some 35 orphans in his tribe. The society largely mimics OT Israel in that it is patriarchal, tribal, and both slavery and polygamy (multiple wives only) is the norm. The wife he brings with him, his first, is one of the most joyous women that I have ever met.

A parent that can not afford to feed their child is thrilled when they can place them in a home that will feed the child and treat them with respect. The child is also grateful for such an arrangement. But why sell the child as a slave you ask?

The family buying the child can not do so unless they are given full authority to work the child to cover for their needs and still come out a little ahead. Without this guarantee, the child would struggle in their home of origin, if not end up with medical problems due to malnutrition and lack of medical care or worse, die an early death. One family has an 'extra' child and another has some extra, unworked land.

Where the rubber meets the road for both child and birth parent is the level of respect and treatment of the child / slave in this process. Is there abuse? Sure, what human interaction is free from abuse? However, this is why God gave laws to ancient Israel regarding slavery. To ensure the owner did not abuse his position.

Honestly, I saw the word 'slavery' the exact same way you did before developing this friendship and hearing it first hand. I would love to visit there some day and spend a year really absorbing this unique culture as it won’t be long before such a key to the past becomes... a thing of the past.

[Questatement]

buying a human is wrong. but in retrospect how often do you think a person has bought a slave just to love her, or coincidentally falls in love with her? very, very rarely i'd suspect

In OT Israel, it happened often enough that there were laws surrounding that exact arrangement where, if the father buying the woman did not find her to be what he had hoped for on behalf of his son, she would be returned to the family (still as a virgin) and the buyer would be returned a portion of his money. Presumably for the work that the woman had done on behalf of the buyers family during the interim.

I understand that we were raised with no practical experience with slavery, taught that it was universally evil and therefore outlawed. However, was everything we were told growing up really the gospel truth?

Especially past, present, and future? Under any and all circumstances?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Here's one of the problems that I think most people have with the concept of slavery. We in the West have prospered beyond the point where any of us would put ourselves up as 'property' in order to better ourselves or in some cases, survive.

No, we have progressed past the point where treating another person as property is seen as wrong, as it should be.

I have a friend in my church who is a tribal elder and a church elder in Burkina Faso. He rotates between home and my church every three months to supervise the fund raising efforts through my church to support some 35 orphans in his tribe. The society largely mimics OT Israel in that it is patriarchal, tribal, and both slavery and polygamy (multiple wives only) is the norm. The wife he brings with him, his first, is one of the most joyous women that I have ever met.

A parent that can not afford to feed their child is thrilled when they can place them in a home that will feed the child and treat them with respect. The child is also grateful for such an arrangement. But why sell the child as a slave you ask?

The family buying the child can not do so unless they are given full authority to work the child to cover for their needs and still come out a little ahead. Without this guarantee, the child would struggle in their home of origin, if not end up with medical problems due to malnutrition and lack of medical care or worse, die an early death. One family has an 'extra' child and another has some extra, unworked land.

i love how you equate what is essentially foster care with slavery. there is a huge difference between giving up a child so that they can have a better life and slavery.

Where the rubber meets the road for both child and birth parent is the level of respect and treatment of the child / slave in this process. Is there abuse? Sure, what human interaction is free from abuse? However, this is why God gave laws to ancient Israel regarding slavery. To ensure the owner did not abuse his position.

What cynicism. I am married, and I sure as hell dont abuse my wife. I damn sure dont abuse my grandparents. Or my friends. Or my coworkers. What kind of twisted relationships do you have?

Also, your horseshit position is exposed when you claim "god's law" for your rules. Its ok to beat a slave to death as long as they dont die within a day or two? what fucked up non-abuse laws your god has there.

Honestly, I saw the word 'slavery' the exact same way you did before developing this friendship and hearing it first hand. I would love to visit there some day and spend a year really absorbing this unique culture as it won’t be long before such a key to the past becomes... a thing of the past.

I bet you would, considering your twisted view of human relationships.

I do appreciate you further cementing my view of you as someone who holds twisted moral values based on an archaic book that prescribes things that are laughable in some places and absolutely fucking tragic in others.

i feel sorry for you. I really do. I wish you could expand your mind so that you could see why your god is such a monster.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

In OT Israel, it happened often enough that there were laws surrounding that exact arrangement where, if the father buying the woman did not find her to be what he had hoped for on behalf of his son, she would be returned to the family (still as a virgin) and the buyer would be returned a portion of his money. Presumably for the work that the woman had done on behalf of the buyers family during the interim.

I understand that we were raised with no practical experience with slavery, taught that it was universally evil and therefore outlawed. However, was everything we were told growing up really the gospel truth?

Especially past, present, and future? Under any and all circumstances?

You know, if you let people make choices on their own, you wouldnt have to set up a return program for your slaves.

Besides, your example shows just how little women were regarded in bible times. They are treated no better than a misfitted shirt.

Hey, if you dont like the wife dad bought for you, you can always return her. What a hell of an argument you have there.

Are you a psychopath? you seem to have no real regard for the feelings of other people, and are perfectly content with treating people as objects.