Imagine

[xx_mortekai_xx]

What cattle owners go around killing their cattle for the heck of it? Are you now claiming that the Hebrews used their slaves as food?

You need a new hat for your strawman.

I didnt even imply that the hebrews ate their slaves.

But they were just like livestock. and you didnt address that point. You argued a completely unrelated point.

Do you have a reference to laws which are on the books but not enforced to any degree from any reliable history of any nation?

I love how you answer my question with an unrelated question. I could answer this with a reference about unenforced laws on the books in the US now, due to stupid shit earlier in our history. But that would be allowing you to draw me into your off topic bullshit.

The point is do you have any reference to the laws actually being enforced?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Innocent gentiles? Tell me what caused them to become the enemies of Israel and we can judge how innocent they really are.

they didnt agree with god, in most cases.

[Questatement]

Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica

Do you read your own links before posting? From it.

In the end, the journal found just eight serious errors, such as general misunderstandings of vital concepts, in the articles. Of those, four came from each site. They did, however, discover a series of factual errors, omissions or misleading statements. All told, Wikipedia had 162 such problems, while Britannica had 123...The (Nature) article is saying that Wikipedia has a third more errors" than Britannica, said Jorge Cauz, president of Encyclopedia Britannica.

I have a couple of investment opportunities for you. One pays x and the other pays 2/3 of x.

Which sounds better to you?

[Questatement]

You need a new hat for your strawman.

I didnt even imply that the hebrews ate their slaves.

But they were just like livestock. and you didnt address that point. You argued a completely unrelated point.

And how is livestock generally treated by its owners?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Do you read your own links before posting? From it.



I have a couple of investment opportunities for you. One pays x and the other pays 2/3 of x.

Which sounds better to you?

nice try. But you are talking 123 and 162 from hundreds of thousands of different subjects. statistically speaking, you are talking no difference.

also, is that the best you can do? a weak sauce argument based on a non-understanding of percentages and statistical analysis?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

And how is livestock generally treated by its owners?

made to work regardless of its will, kept in large communal shelters, have no possessions or rights.

how about we stick to the topic at hand. Slaves are treated as property. The closest comparison is livestock. treating people as if they were livestock with no rights is wrong. Your bible supports treating people like livestock with no rights. Therefore, your bible supports something that is wrong.

[Questatement]

nice try. But you are talking 123 and 162 from hundreds of thousands of different subjects. statistically speaking, you are talking no difference.

also, is that the best you can do? a weak sauce argument based on a non-understanding of percentages and statistical analysis?

I quoted the stats in YOUR link and I'm weak sauce?

Do you know how desperate you sound at this point?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I quoted the stats in YOUR link and I'm weak sauce?

Do you know how desperate you sound at this point?

You are quoting stats from my link out of context.

I actually expect nothing less from you. but your thinking that you have struck some kind of point with your post actually reinforces my point about your lack of understanding of statistical analysis.

A simpleton just looks at the numbers and goes "this one is bigger than that one! hur hur". someone who understands how such things work look at the numbers and realize that, AT BEST, there is a 0.04% difference in accuracy, and that is with a conservative number of 100,000 articles. statistically speaking, that is no difference. Both are above 95% accurate.

[truthreality]

Innocent gentiles? Tell me what caused them to become the enemies of Israel and we can judge how innocent they really are.

Israel's enemies are whoever the authors of the Bible choose to them. Generally they are those who do not suite the interest of Israel.

"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 20:16-18

In the above verse the justification to exterminate the Canaanites was simply because they worshiped other Gods. You know what we call that in civilized societies? Religious intolerance and discrimination coupled with hate crime.

To answer your question as to what makes someone an enemy to Israel here are the reasons by scholars:

"the Bible also contains the horrific account of what can only be described as a "biblical holocaust". For, in order to keep the chosen people apart from and unaffected by the alien beliefs and practices of indigenous or neighbouring peoples, when God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.
Thus we read in the Book of Numbers that the Jews "waged the campaign against Midian, as Yahweh had ordered Moses, and they put every male to death... the sons of Israel took the Midianite women captive with their young children, and plundered all their cattle, all their flocks and all their goods. They set fire to the towns where they lived and all their encampments... Then, when they took the captives, spoil and booty to Moses..., Moses was enraged.... 'why have you spared the life of all the women...? So kill all the male children. Kill also all the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves".Num 31:7-19.
Similarly in the Book of Deuteronomy, when the Jews attacked Sihon's Amorite kingdom, "Yahweh our God delivered him over to us... We captured all his cities and laid whole towns under ban, men, women and children; we spared nothing but the livestock which we took as our spoil".Deut 2:33-35
Likewise in the Transjordanian kingdom of Og, king of Bashan: "We captured all his towns at that time... Sixty towns... We laid them under ban... - the whole town, men, women and children, under the ban".Deut 3:4-7.
Sometimes, the ban could vary; for in a later chapter of the same book, we read that "if (a town) refuses peace and offers resistance,... Yahweh your God shall deliver it unto your power and you are to put all its menfolk to the sword. But the women, the children, the livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, you may take for yourselves as booty".Deut 20:12-14.
In the Book of Joshua, we read about the most famous case of all - the fall of Jericho: "Then Yahweh said to Joshua, 'Now I am delivering Jericho and its king into your hands". So, when "the walls of Jericho came tumbling down", the Jewish warriors "enforced the ban on everything in the town: men and women, young and old, even the oxen and sheep and donkeys, massacring them all".Joshua 6:21
The same for the people of Ai; for "Yahweh said to Joshua... "You are to do with Ai and its king as you did with Jericho and its king..."Joshua 8:2 And "the number of those who fell that day, men and women together, was twelve thousand, all people of Ai ... All to a man had fallen by the edge of the sword".Joshua 8:24-25
The same in southern Canaan, which "Yahweh gave into the power of Israel; and Israel struck every living creature there with the edge of the sword, and left none alive".Joshua 10:30 The same at Lachish where "no one was left alive".Joshua 10:33" Dr Ian Guthridge, The Rise and Decline of the Christian Empire, Pages 319-320

"the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. … If the founding text shapes the whole religion, then Judaism and Christianity deserve the utmost condemnation as religions of savagery." Philip Jenkins

"The 'demonization of the opponent' that Deuteronomy advocates is precisely something that accompanies genocides. This then in fact speaks for the conceptual plausibility of the historical occurrence of the events portrayed in Joshua. In addition, that genocides are often triggered by war or some other severe crisis also speaks for the conceptual plausibility of the events portrayed in Joshua. … It is certainly right, I believe, to try to show that the genocide of the Canaanites (whether real or imaginary) was a unique set of events and that the biblical material should not be read as giving license for repeating it. … the theological difficulty of the [holy war] is not mitigated by arguments against its historicity, since the text has in any case shown its capacity to mandate violence against peoples. … But we also saw that the book of Joshua advocates a vision where an important part of achieving an ideal society was to destroy anyone or anything not compatible with its central tenet of Yahwism." Pitkanen, Pekka, "Memory, Witnesses, and Genocide in the Book of Joshua", in Reading the law: studies in honour of Gordon J. Wenham, J. Gordon McConville, Karl Möller (Eds), Continuum International Publishing Group, 2007, pp 267-282 quote (Page 280-281)

According to Scholar L. Daniel Hawk in Reading Bibles, writing bodies: identity and the Book Biblical limits Author Timothy Kandler Beal Editors Timothy Kandler Beal, David M. Gunn Edition illustrated Publisher Psychology Press, 1997, pp 153-163 the extermination of Cannanites was "ethnic cleansing".

Here is the main point. The war waged on other nations by Israel is classic genocide. Just like Hitler demonized Jews to justify the Holocaust the authors of the Bible demonized non-Hebrews as justification for waging war on them.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Israel's enemies are whoever the authors of the Bible choose to them. Generally they are those who do not suite the interest of Israel.

"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 20:16-18

In the above verse the justification to exterminate the Canaanites was simply because they worshiped other Gods. You know what we call that in civilized societies? Religious intolerance and discrimination coupled with hate crime.

To answer your question as to what makes someone an enemy to Israel here are the reasons by scholars:

"the Bible also contains the horrific account of what can only be described as a "biblical holocaust". For, in order to keep the chosen people apart from and unaffected by the alien beliefs and practices of indigenous or neighbouring peoples, when God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword.
Thus we read in the Book of Numbers that the Jews "waged the campaign against Midian, as Yahweh had ordered Moses, and they put every male to death... the sons of Israel took the Midianite women captive with their young children, and plundered all their cattle, all their flocks and all their goods. They set fire to the towns where they lived and all their encampments... Then, when they took the captives, spoil and booty to Moses..., Moses was enraged.... 'why have you spared the life of all the women...? So kill all the male children. Kill also all the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves".Num 31:7-19.
Similarly in the Book of Deuteronomy, when the Jews attacked Sihon's Amorite kingdom, "Yahweh our God delivered him over to us... We captured all his cities and laid whole towns under ban, men, women and children; we spared nothing but the livestock which we took as our spoil".Deut 2:33-35
Likewise in the Transjordanian kingdom of Og, king of Bashan: "We captured all his towns at that time... Sixty towns... We laid them under ban... - the whole town, men, women and children, under the ban".Deut 3:4-7.
Sometimes, the ban could vary; for in a later chapter of the same book, we read that "if (a town) refuses peace and offers resistance,... Yahweh your God shall deliver it unto your power and you are to put all its menfolk to the sword. But the women, the children, the livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, you may take for yourselves as booty".Deut 20:12-14.
In the Book of Joshua, we read about the most famous case of all - the fall of Jericho: "Then Yahweh said to Joshua, 'Now I am delivering Jericho and its king into your hands". So, when "the walls of Jericho came tumbling down", the Jewish warriors "enforced the ban on everything in the town: men and women, young and old, even the oxen and sheep and donkeys, massacring them all".Joshua 6:21
The same for the people of Ai; for "Yahweh said to Joshua... "You are to do with Ai and its king as you did with Jericho and its king..."Joshua 8:2 And "the number of those who fell that day, men and women together, was twelve thousand, all people of Ai ... All to a man had fallen by the edge of the sword".Joshua 8:24-25
The same in southern Canaan, which "Yahweh gave into the power of Israel; and Israel struck every living creature there with the edge of the sword, and left none alive".Joshua 10:30 The same at Lachish where "no one was left alive".Joshua 10:33" Dr Ian Guthridge, The Rise and Decline of the Christian Empire, Pages 319-320

"the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. … If the founding text shapes the whole religion, then Judaism and Christianity deserve the utmost condemnation as religions of savagery." Philip Jenkins

"The 'demonization of the opponent' that Deuteronomy advocates is precisely something that accompanies genocides. This then in fact speaks for the conceptual plausibility of the historical occurrence of the events portrayed in Joshua. In addition, that genocides are often triggered by war or some other severe crisis also speaks for the conceptual plausibility of the events portrayed in Joshua. … It is certainly right, I believe, to try to show that the genocide of the Canaanites (whether real or imaginary) was a unique set of events and that the biblical material should not be read as giving license for repeating it. … the theological difficulty of the [holy war] is not mitigated by arguments against its historicity, since the text has in any case shown its capacity to mandate violence against peoples. … But we also saw that the book of Joshua advocates a vision where an important part of achieving an ideal society was to destroy anyone or anything not compatible with its central tenet of Yahwism." Pitkanen, Pekka, "Memory, Witnesses, and Genocide in the Book of Joshua", in Reading the law: studies in honour of Gordon J. Wenham, J. Gordon McConville, Karl Möller (Eds), Continuum International Publishing Group, 2007, pp 267-282 quote (Page 280-281)

According to Scholar L. Daniel Hawk in Reading Bibles, writing bodies: identity and the Book Biblical limits Author Timothy Kandler Beal Editors Timothy Kandler Beal, David M. Gunn Edition illustrated Publisher Psychology Press, 1997, pp 153-163 the extermination of Cannanites was "ethnic cleansing".

Here is the main point. The war waged on other nations by Israel is classic genocide. Just like Hitler demonized Jews to justify the Holocaust the authors of the Bible demonized non-Hebrews as justification for waging war on them.

Goddamn, man. A shotgun would have done, but you brought a fucking nuke!

But i fear he has succeeded in dragging you off course. However, given the thorough beating you just gave the point, i dont see any further argument as needed on this point anyway. and its likely he will twist your response to some kind of justification of god's will or something equally vapid.

He does have a knack for the usual christian tactic of diverting the conversation so that they dont have to face the hard questions.

[truthreality]

I quoted the stats in YOUR link and I'm weak sauce?

Do you know how desperate you sound at this point?

I would have to say it is you who sounds desperate as you are pulling arguments from the sky in any attempt to defend the wickedness of the Bible. Slowly the evidence is mounting up in this thread and eventually it will be too much for you to handle.

[Affluence]

I think that if you walk around in a sort of stupor which has been prescribed to you then most certainly you are a product of your times. Should your enlightened or unenlightened presence fall out of line and make use of the potentially dangerous simple act of asking - begging the question - its the stuff of heroes.

Almost everything the atheists here claims on the Bible speaks of ignorance. But, it doesn't matter.

I agree with you.