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Thread: Romans 5:12 and free will

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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    Romans 5:12 and free will

    Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin;
    and so death passed to all men, because all sinned


    To me, this completely negates the christian idea of free will. If we had no choice from before our birth, which is what this specifically implies, we have no way to avoid hell from the get go. Since we are all accountable for the sin of adam and eve, we have no free will. Instead, there is a mafia boss leaning on our bad times telling us that if we dont pay the vig, he is going to burn us for something that we are born with.


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    Always Seeking LetThereBe's Avatar
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    Read Romans 9.

    I think it makes the point considerably more explicitly.

    Serious as a heart attack...

    ...and twice as deadly.

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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: LetThereBe View Post
    Read Romans 9.

    I think it makes the point considerably more explicitly.
    ive read it and never noticed it. Its actually amazing how much I discover every time i read that book. It just gets worse and worse.

    However, i am still not seeing it. Could you please post the relevant verses?


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    Always Seeking LetThereBe's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: xx_mortekai_xx View Post
    ive read it and never noticed it. Its actually amazing how much I discover every time i read that book. It just gets worse and worse.

    However, i am still not seeing it. Could you please post the relevant verses?
    Well... basically all of it?

    I guess it is most obvious here:

    9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
    God’s Sovereign Choice

    6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad —in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]


    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


    Serious as a heart attack...

    ...and twice as deadly.

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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: LetThereBe View Post
    Well... basically all of it?

    I guess it is most obvious here:
    I was reading 8 somehow. Sorry about that.

    anyway, you are right. it does specifically lay out that there is nothing that we can do to escape god's will, and that if he is going to have compassion, then he will. if not, then he wont.

    so, god is ultimately responsible, even according to the bible.


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    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    "But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?"
    God loves us, god sent his only son to die for us...but who the hell do you think you are to question god?!?

    I wonder why the Biblical authors who fashioned their god after a human father decided to use a dysfunctional father for the model?



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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    This also necessarily makes christianity a representative system in that one individual can be held responsible for the actions of another. How would that be fair or just?


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    However, i am still not seeing it.
    True. I totally agree.

    Romans 9
    Israel’s unbelief
    30  What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Romans 8
    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    "If" is indicative of a choice made by each of us. Pharaoh made a choice just as you have. And God carries out his will based on his foreknowledge and our choices thus determining our destinies. Your fate and mine are predestined according to our choices that God knows we will make ahead of time. I know you won't get it but now you will know you have no excuse.

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Romans 10

    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Perhaps if you kept things in context you would be able to comprehend what you read.

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    And you you dismiss my experiences.
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    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    god judges us on things we havent even done yet, but we have free will?

    and again, how is holding us responsible for the sins of adam and eve just?


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    Quote Quote by: xx_mortekai_xx View Post
    god judges us on things we havent even done yet, but we have free will?

    and again, how is holding us responsible for the sins of adam and eve just?
    Yes. The fact he knows what you will choose doesn't in any way mean you do not make the choice.

    He holds us responsible for our sin, not theirs. It just happens to be the same as theirs, unbelief in his word.

    Quote Quote by: BlackSheep View Post
    And you you dismiss my experiences.
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Irony. You're simply divine at exhibiting it and I want to make sweet sweet love to you for it.
    "The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White

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    Always Seeking LetThereBe's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    Yes. The fact he knows what you will choose doesn't in any way mean you do not make the choice.

    He holds us responsible for our sin, not theirs. It just happens to be the same as theirs, unbelief in his word.
    What about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart? How can he make a choice when God hardens his heart? What does Romans 9 mean by "objects of wrath, prepared for destruction"?

    Serious as a heart attack...

    ...and twice as deadly.

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    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: finder View Post
    Yes. The fact he knows what you will choose doesn't in any way mean you do not make the choice.
    yeah it does. You admitted that things are predestined, since we are judged before we do these things. and even if your god could see all timelines, he would also have to know which one is going to come to pass, since he knows everything.

    unless your god is able to accomplish the illogical or contradictory. Is that the case?

    He holds us responsible for our sin, not theirs. It just happens to be the same as theirs, unbelief in his word.
    So, you are saying that the bible is wrong and that we arent born with sin on our soul?


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