God is ultimately responsible

[xx_mortekai_xx]

If god is an omnipotent, onmiscient being, and nothing can happen without his approval (which is inherent, since he knows everything and can do everything), then god is ultimately responsible for people being sent to hell, and for every evil thing that happens on this planet.

These conditions (omnipotence and omniscience) also raise a few other questions:

why would a being that knows ahead of time what would happen ever even put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place?

Why would a being that knows ahead of time what would happen create people just to have to wipe them out a few centuries later? And why wait until there are only 8 supposedly richeous people left in the entire world?

Knowing that there would be immense suffering that would be caused by the creation of people, why create us on this earth in the first place? god presumably knows what is going to happen to each person before they are made, so why not just make the good souls that are going to go to heaven?

Why set up the system in such a way that it requires this god to take human form in order to act as an ultimate sacrifice to appease himself for all the sins of people? Why not just change the rules?

And my final question:

Did god have a choice in the creation of the universe?

[Peter]

Great questions Mort right out of the gate!

Let me hazard an answer.

As you say, god could have made everything good and pure but where's the fun in that? He gave us this thingy called free will which is apparently the ability to tell him to fuck off, and we did. Well at least the first two humans did. This pissed god off so bad he cursed all of us forever and now we're just acting out the final chapters in his grand play. See, god is something of a prankster and he loves his fun at others expense. Meh, that makes more sense to me than any apologetics I've heard on this forum.

[Apeman81]

If god is an omnipotent, onmiscient being, and nothing can happen without his approval (which is inherent, since he knows everything and can do everything), then god is ultimately responsible for people being sent to hell, and for every evil thing that happens on this planet.

These conditions (omnipotence and omniscience) also raise a few other questions:

why would a being that knows ahead of time what would happen ever even put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place?

Why would a being that knows ahead of time what would happen create people just to have to wipe them out a few centuries later? And why wait until there are only 8 supposedly richeous people left in the entire world?

Knowing that there would be immense suffering that would be caused by the creation of people, why create us on this earth in the first place? god presumably knows what is going to happen to each person before they are made, so why not just make the good souls that are going to go to heaven?

Why set up the system in such a way that it requires this god to take human form in order to act as an ultimate sacrifice to appease himself for all the sins of people? Why not just change the rules?

And my final question:

Did god have a choice in the creation of the universe?

How many people who lived prior to the flood will enjoy life in heaven?

Immense suffering following creation? How about the great joy so many have experienced? Better to deny life for all to avoid suffering for some?

Make just the good souls? Good bereft of bad? Kinda hard to compare and contrast that way.

Christ's death upon the cross teaches many things. Sacrifice for the sake of others and to look to God for salvation among them.

Change the rules? Because "standing squishy" just doesn't sound right.

Did God have a choice in creation? Ask Him.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Thanks. I stumbled across this forum after coming to my wits end on others when it comes to religious debate.

I have thought of that quite often, that a the christian god would have to be a loki type of god, and his great trick is that he put people on the earth with no evidence of his existence to see how many people would believe anyway. Then he rewards those who were not gullible.

But that was when I was still trying to rationalize my belief. I no longer have that burden.

(to be clear, I am an atheist. I do no assert no gods exist, but i have yet to be convinced by god claims. At least since I stopped being a christian.)

[xx_mortekai_xx]

How many people who lived prior to the flood will enjoy life in heaven?

Immense suffering following creation? How about the great joy so many have experienced? Better to deny life for all to avoid suffering for some?

Make just the good souls? Good bereft of bad? Kinda hard to compare and contrast that way.

Christ's death upon the cross teaches many things. Sacrifice for the sake of others and to look to God for salvation among them.

Change the rules? Because "standing squishy" just doesn't sound right.

Did God have a choice in creation? Ask Him.

Considering Noah's flood was before the supposed salvation offered by jesus, my guess would be none got into heaven, especially if god found them wanting to the point of having to kill all of them.

Yes, immense suffering, and, according to the bible, a good deal of it at the direct command of god. People killing other people for no good reason, torture, slavery, human sacrifice, rape...All of these things. God must have seen all of it before ever making a single person, hell, before the creation of the universe. Why make people that are going to go so absolutely wrong?

Yes, since he desires worship and love, why make souls that will disobey and not worship him? God already knows the difference between good and evil. He didnt want us to know, hence the ban on eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Christ's supposed death teaches us that this god likes to make convoluted rules in which he sacrifices himself to himself instead of setting up a decent ruleset to begin with. He would be a poor god, even by D&D standards, much less universal standards.

He changes the rules as he wishes anyway, by performing miracles and violating the laws of physics.

I have asked. over and over. And all i got were platitudes from his followers. Never any answers that satisfied.

[Apeman81]

x_mortekai_xx;876154]Considering Noah's flood was before the supposed salvation offered by jesus, my guess would be none got into heaven, especially if god found them wanting to the point of having to kill all of them.

You would be wrong. Christ existed from the beginning. His death upon the cross paid the debt of sin for all men. The prophetic writing of Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all
among other passages speaks to that.

Yes, immense suffering, and, according to the bible, a good deal of it at the direct command of god. People killing other people for no good reason, torture, slavery, human sacrifice, rape...All of these things. God must have seen all of it before ever making a single person, hell, before the creation of the universe. Why make people that are going to go so absolutely wrong?

Life on earth is temporary. After life is eternal. Should God deny eternal life with him to those who attain it because of the temporary suffering of those who don't? You suggested that man should not have been created because some would suffer. I find that a bad argument.

Yes, since he desires worship and love, why make souls that will disobey and not worship him? God already knows the difference between good and evil. He didnt want us to know, hence the ban on eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We all have the choice to follow or reject. Those who reject bring the suffering upon themselves.

Christ's supposed death teaches us that this god likes to make convoluted rules in which he sacrifices himself to himself instead of setting up a decent ruleset to begin with. He would be a poor god, even by D&D standards, much less universal standards.

What are the "universal" standards for a god?

He changes the rules as he wishes anyway, by performing miracles and violating the laws of physics.

The "laws" of physics are conclusions of man based upon observations of man.

I have asked. over and over. And all i got were platitudes from his followers. Never any answers that satisfied.

What is required to satisfy your question? Who is required to answer them?

[xx_mortekai_xx]

You would be wrong. Christ existed from the beginning. His death upon the cross paid the debt of sin for all men. The prophetic writing of Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all
among other passages speaks to that.

I hope you realize that you might as well be quoting L. Ron Hubbard to me, because I take no more stock in your fairy tale book than I do in Dianetics. Besides, writings of which you cannot verify an origin, author, or veracity of the claims therein mean little when it comes to providing evidence or answers.

Life on earth is temporary. After life is eternal. Should God deny eternal life with him to those who attain it because of the temporary suffering of those who don't? You suggested that man should not have been created because some would suffer. I find that a bad argument.

Actually, i never suggested such a thing. I asked why an all seeing god would make people that he knew ahead of time would go to hell. Since your god supposedly knows everything, that also includes knowledge of all future events.

So, why create people who suffer temporarily on earth and then suffer eternally in hell? Why not just not make the bad souls?

We all have the choice to follow or reject. Those who reject bring the suffering upon themselves.

Let me ask you this: Did god create hell?

What are the "universal" standards for a god?

I was using the word to mean "contained within the universe". Your god isnt fit as a dungeonmaster, much less the god of the whole universe, given that he cant even manage some puny mortals well enough to keep them from constantly fucking up over and over again.

The "laws" of physics are conclusions of man based upon observations of man.

And very well confirmed to be true. But, of course, your god is above all that, right? not subject to the laws of the universe, and beyond the understanding of mere mortals like us?

What is required to satisfy your question? Who is required to answer them?

Your god, in all his infinite wisdom, should know exactly what would convince me. And considering it hasnt happened yet (and the opposite HAS) I must assume that if your god IS real, he wants me to not believe. Or he doesnt exist.

I take the simpler answer as the more likely one.

[Peter]

We all have the choice to follow or reject. Those who reject bring the suffering upon themselves.

The same way it's our choice if someone put a gun to our kneecap and demanded our love. Is it really the victims fault and they deserve to get kneecapped? That's pretty sick.

[xx_mortekai_xx]

The same way it's our choice if someone put a gun to our kneecap and demanded our love. Is it really the victims fault and they deserve to get kneecapped? That's pretty sick.

I call that the mafia boss scenario.

A mafia boss gives you the 'choice' of paying the vig or not. Not paying the vig, of course, entails your shop being burned down.

The christian view is that its your fault for your shop being burned down, since 'all you had to do' was pay the vig.

[Apeman81]

The same way it's our choice if someone put a gun to our kneecap and demanded our love. Is it really the victims fault and they deserve to get kneecapped? That's pretty sick.

Except there is no gun and you have an entire lifetime to choose.

[Apeman81]

I call that the mafia boss scenario.

A mafia boss gives you the 'choice' of paying the vig or not. Not paying the vig, of course, entails your shop being burned down.

The christian view is that its your fault for your shop being burned down, since 'all you had to do' was pay the vig.

Or not borrow the money from a loan shark.

Your scenarios demonstrate a very limited thought pattern

[xx_mortekai_xx]

Except there is no gun and you have an entire lifetime to choose.

So, if you dont love jesus and accept him as savior, what happens? no gun, right? So if your comparison is true, i should be in no danger by not accepting jesus.