Theists who become atheists

[Dave In Canada]

[QUOTE]

That says it all. Jack made a very similar claim in another thread. How he was going to answer a calling but decided to study the bible first to get to know God "better". There is no way one believes in what they do not know. Nor can they place faith in the real God when the god they have in mind is imaginary.

People believe in all sorts of things that they do not or cannot know. To suggest that the God in your mind is any more real than other people of faith is arrogant. It may be simply that your delusion is stronger than their delusion. The only fact that we can ascertain about Gods is that they all exist in the human mind.

You guys accepted the god that you were told about and I rejected the god I was told about. I rejected the false god and you guys accepted the false god. The first 40 years of my life were spent denying the god of my imagination that stemmed from what I was indoctrinated with. But in that instant that I truly wanted to know God, the one in scripture, that did things from a seemingly forthright and purposeful perspective who made no apologies for himself. A euphoric feeling overwhelmed me and in an instant I suddenly received a glimpse of reality from God's perspective.

It's not as simple as that. We also accepted the fact that humans invent Gods. We grew to understand that religious and spiritual beliefs are culturally based. We grew to understand that it is arrogant and beyond ridiculous to believe that our God is the one true God and that all others are false.

The euphoric feeling that you felt was not God. It was a delusion in which you allowed your emotions to override rational thought. This unfortunately is commonplace among people who believe in Gods. People who believe in only their God and yet dismiss other Gods are experts in creating rationalizations for their belief.

Not only do you dismiss other Gods but you dismiss the idea that people who once shared the same belief in your God could not have had the same knowledge that you profess to own.

Your delusion is no different nor any more real than those of other faiths who make similar assertions with regards to their experiences with their Gods.

[minorwork]

Pretty hard to believe the interpretation of a private nature (god bonding) is accurate when the interpretations of another's statements are so obviously wrong. Accusations

But how could you believe in God when you didn't know what he was about? Even though you thought you did, you didn't so you or Jack or anyone else who acknowledges God and makes decision based on that acknowledgment as oppose to intimately understanding and accepting what God is about. Your own words tell of that fact, not any reasoning or assertions on my part.

If you can't see your own reasoning in the bolded phrasing, then you are in for quite a shock when the next level of God is realized. You're taking the name of God in vain claiming knowledge of not only Jack's, but anyone's thoughts. Quite a claim, even for a deity, isn't it?

[Peter]

And I will answer those questions directly when I can but I have to work now and get prepared to admit my wife for an upcoming major surgery.

Tell her this atheist is hoping all goes well and she has a full recovery!

[Cephus]

Tell her this atheist is hoping all goes well and she has a full recovery!

I share the sentiment, I hope his wife comes through surgery fast and healthy and has a long and happy life.

That said though, I guess praying to God didn't help since God didn't see fit to heal her. I don't doubt that he'll start thanking God for how well she did in surgery, instead of thanking all the doctors, nurses and modern medical knowledge and equipment. Funny how that happens.

[finder]

My sympathies. May your comments be more illuminating upon your return.

Tell her this atheist is hoping all goes well and she has a full recovery!

I share the sentiment, I hope his wife comes through surgery fast and healthy and has a long and happy life.

Thank you all for your sentiments. I have to confess that when I typed that message to Jack I worded it poorly and in a hurry while at work on my phone. She is having surgery but what I meant by having to prepare for her admittance was I had to clean the sheets, clean the house, get everything sterile as can be for her eventual release. She has one more mri tomorrow at 6:30 am and Monday we will have a date scheduled for surgery. She's not totally helpless but she can only walk to the restroom or around the house, she can do nothing beyond that and she is in extreme pain. My "to do" list grew rapidly.

And Cephus, I do thank the doctors.

[finder]

You're going to accuse me of arrogance and in the same breath attempt to tell me what I believed? Wow, really?

I'm still very pressed for time but I did want address this, and I still intend on answering your post #60.

Your argument is based on the fact you had REAL faith in the god of the bible, the same god as mine and then lost that faith when you found out he didn't exist upon learning more. I get that so please stop asserting the absurd notion that I think I can read minds. Mine is that is because you never bonded with him. (joined together as one spirit) Which has to be true if today you consider him nonexistent. See, no presumption on my part. What makes you think you're immune to misconceptions or erroneous perceptions of who/what the god of the bible are? Of course people misplace their faith and loose it as a result. As you know the bible tell us that, Cephus in scripture lost faith in the same god as mine. So your fallacy that your situation and those like it doesn't affect me. People misunderstand God all the time, but in the end it is always those who can't accept his sovereignty that abandon there faith all together. And you have expressed that very thing openly in your previous judgments against "the god of the old testament."

[xx_mortekai_xx]

I'm still very pressed for time but I did want address this, and I still intend on answering your post #60.

Your argument is based on the fact you had REAL faith in the god of the bible, the same god as mine and then lost that faith when you found out he didn't exist upon learning more. I get that so please stop asserting the absurd notion that I think I can read minds. Mine is that is because you never bonded with him. (joined together as one spirit) Which has to be true if today you consider him nonexistent. See, no presumption on my part. What makes you think you're immune to misconceptions or erroneous perceptions of who/what the god of the bible are? Of course people misplace their faith and loose it as a result. As you know the bible tell us that, Cephus in scripture lost faith in the same god as mine. So your fallacy that your situation and those like it doesn't affect me. People misunderstand God all the time, but in the end it is always those who can't accept his sovereignty that abandon there faith all together. And you have expressed that very thing openly in your previous judgments against "the god of the old testament."

I love how you say that you understand the absurd notion that you think you can read minds, then turn around and make the same statement that requires you to be able to read minds.

If free will exists, then we should have absolute ability to "join together as one spirit" and then choose to reject god anyway (unless, of course, we dont have free will, which causes all kinds of problems with your religion), so your assertion is ridiculous, even within your own religious construct.

And what makes you think YOUR perception is immune to being deceived? Your absolute assertions are, no doubt, based on your perception of what you think your god is and what his nature is, which is just as susceptible to deceit as anyone else.

and its not a problem with accepting his sovereignty, its accepting the ridiculous claims that are contradictory to each other in some places, and flat out wrong in others.

[Cephus]

Your argument is based on the fact you had REAL faith in the god of the bible, the same god as mine and then lost that faith when you found out he didn't exist upon learning more. I get that so please stop asserting the absurd notion that I think I can read minds. Mine is that is because you never bonded with him. (joined together as one spirit) Which has to be true if today you consider him nonexistent. See, no presumption on my part. What makes you think you're immune to misconceptions or erroneous perceptions of who/what the god of the bible are? Of course people misplace their faith and loose it as a result. As you know the bible tell us that, Cephus in scripture lost faith in the same god as mine. So your fallacy that your situation and those like it doesn't affect me. People misunderstand God all the time, but in the end it is always those who can't accept his sovereignty that abandon there faith all together. And you have expressed that very thing openly in your previous judgments against "the god of the old testament."

You're still making the same old fallacious argument though. No matter how many times we correct you, you keep doing it over and over again. This is the classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy. "No true Christian can ever lose faith, if they lose faith, they were never a true Christian!"

The problem is, every single one of us felt EXACTLY the same way you do right now when we were Christians. If you had asked me 25 years ago, I would have given you the exact same answer. I was every bit as committed to my beliefs then as you are now. Like it or not, beliefs change, especially if you actually care if the things you believe are factually true. Enough with the silly moral crusading, you're just wrong. Your faith is nothing special. Ex-theists, by and large, felt exactly what you claim to feel today. They just got over it.

Hopefully, someday you will too.

[Jack]

Mine is that is because you never bonded with him. (joined together as one spirit) Which has to be true if today you consider him nonexistent. See, no presumption on my part.

That's total presumption on your part. Your claiming as fact something you can't possibly know to be true. You can believe it because that idea is a part of your doctrinal beliefs, but in attempting to apply it to people you don't know you're presuming it is true solely because your beliefs say it must be true.

I'd like to add that since you still haven't provided a useful, coherent definition of what "bonding" is it's impossible for anyone else to say if they've experienced it or not. Obviously if you can detail that experience and we say that we have indeed experienced it you'll just resort to another excuse why we couldn't have been "real Christians" and still rejected religious belief.

People misunderstand God all the time, but in the end it is always those who can't accept his sovereignty that abandon there faith all together.

And rejected belief in god is exactly what we did. To believe that god has sovereignty requires one to think god exists. Once a person moves on from religious belief the concept of god's sovereignty is as meaningless as any other characteristic of god.

[finder]

That's total presumption on your part. Your claiming as fact something you can't possibly know to be true. You can believe it because that idea is a part of your doctrinal beliefs, but in attempting to apply it to people you don't know you're presuming it is true solely because your beliefs say it must be true.

Bond like a mother and child.

If I am presumptuous then you will have to explain how you bonded with that which according to you doesn't exist.

[Jack]

If I am presumptuous then you will have to explain how you bonded with that which according to you doesn't exist.

You keep ignoring the fact that at that time I did believe. Is that really so difficult to understand? What you should be asking, but haven't, is how we explain that relationship now that we no longer believe. But then that question doesn't help you undermine our past belief, does it?

[finder]

You're still making the same old fallacious argument though. No matter how many times we correct you, you keep doing it over and over again. This is the classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy. "No true Christian can ever lose faith, if they lose faith, they were never a true Christian!"

The problem is, every single one of us felt EXACTLY the same way you do right now when we were Christians. If you had asked me 25 years ago, I would have given you the exact same answer. I was every bit as committed to my beliefs then as you are now. Like it or not, beliefs change, especially if you actually care if the things you believe are factually true. Enough with the silly moral crusading, you're just wrong. Your faith is nothing special. Ex-theists, by and large, felt exactly what you claim to feel today. They just got over it.

Hopefully, someday you will too.

So let me get this straight. You believed in god, my god, so you know my mind because my faith is the same as yours was. But if I say no, my faith is different because I did not walk away from it, you know better so I will or should one day? And if I use the same words like "felt" or "called" as you did 25 years ago that settles it you know my faith has no subtance because yours didn't? And I'm presumptuous if I don't agree you know my mind and admit they are the same faith? Amazing!

It doesn't even don on any of you that the substance of my faith is completely different then yours was just because we share the same language. And you think you know I'm delusional because you were delusional with your faith and we share a familiarity with Christian doctrine. Maybe true believers just understand the substance of that doctrine better than you, eh? Oh, that can't be, that's the whole problem you have with it, huh? You can't believe that so YOU MUST Know us better than we know ourselves, what gall! You are the presumptuous ones.