In fact, I'd say the vast majority of people who currently claim to be Christians are doing exactly that right now. That doesn't mean anyone who abandons Christianity was that way.Quote by: The Theist
In fact, I'd say the vast majority of people who currently claim to be Christians are doing exactly that right now. That doesn't mean anyone who abandons Christianity was that way.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.
Um, this is a debate forum, the purpose of it is to RESPOND to other posters. Are you unaware of that fact?
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.
See, I think that illustrates the problem right there, even though you didn't intend it when you wrote it. To you... this stuff is real. However, in reality, it isn't something that's either real or unreal to an individual, it's real or unreal objectively. God either exists or doesn't exist. There are no other options and if God exists, God exists for everyone and if God doesn't exist, God doesn't exist for anyone. This isn't a question of do you believe or not, it's solely a question of is it true or not.
If it's true, then there ought to be evidence. That evidence ought to be objective and demonstrable. That evidence ought not be based on emotion or wishful thinking. It ought not be any different than asking if gravity is real. We don't run around and wave our arms and declare "I have faith in gravity because it makes me feel better!" We just do research and accept the findings.
So why isn't the existence of God like that? It ought to be something entirely dispassionate. So why, to you, is it not?
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.
Another way to put it:
Things that are real dont stop existing if one ceases to believe in them.
In order to get the 'proof' for a god, belief without evidence is first required. This is delusional thinking and indicative of an irrational though process.
You should examine what each are saying closely and then you can conclude the truth. It is not a "no true Scotsman fallacy" for the simple fact I do not claim faith is held or strengthen only by the person who has it. In the fallacy, personal taste is the object that makes the "no true Scotsman fallacy" a fallacy. Faith in God isn't about personal taste, it is about reality whether people accept that fact or not. In my op I addressed the fact that no former theist that became atheist describes the union/the joining of spirits between they and God. That is because it never happened with them. Fact, not personal taste. Isn't it true you as an atheist believe we theists believe as long as we choose to? But if we get enough worldly wisdom and knowledge we will abandon the faith as you have, assuming you have? If not you can still answer the question. My contention is you believe that because you never joined or allowed God to become a part of you. If you had, you could no more deny him then you can your family, the house you live in, your employment or any other object of reality that's a part of existence. In other words, God keeps us convicted in our faith, not our personal will. We can will God into nonexistence no more then you can will the woman who gave birth to you into nonexistence.
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
Well, uh, yeah. You must of missed my point. You said you don't care what I think, but in reality you did enough to let me know what you thought about it. So your remarks lose credibility.
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
Then you're not paying any attention because LOTS of former theists say exactly what you're saying, myself included. When I was a Christian, I was absolutely convinced that there was a spiritual connection between myself and God, to use your terminology. I was just wrong. It was delusion on my part, just like it's delusion for you. You simply refuse to understand that rejecting the religion makes one re-evaluate one's former feelings and "experiences". I no longer think I had any kind of personal relationship with Jesus or anything like that. I absolutely, without question once did though.
So stop acting like you have a clue.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.
You're right, I don't care what you think. I care what you can demonstrate with logic, reason and evidence. I care what you can back up. The fact that you can run around claiming absurd things is meaningless in any rational debate. The fact that you're unable to do anything but that makes your entire position absurd.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.
Agreed, he used a poor choice of words.
You are right and that is why I don't believe in God "just to feel good." It's much better knowing for a fact he exists and sustains. God doesn't cow to the cynical demands of his rebellious creation so he probably won't jump through your hoops to satisfy your cynical nature. But he does provide some evidence. For instance since the beginning of civilization God has had it prophesied that people like you will have your attitude towards him and believers, thinking yourself wise with understanding but in reality understanding very little. Oh, but you used to be a theist so you all ready knew that about yourself!If it's true, then there ought to be evidence. That evidence ought to be objective and demonstrable. That evidence ought not be based on emotion or wishful thinking. It ought not be any different than asking if gravity is real. We don't run around and wave our arms and declare "I have faith in gravity because it makes me feel better!" We just do research and accept the findings.
I can't speak for him, but in my case God is "more real" in the sense I see his presence and receive the blessing of his love daily. So that might be what he meant. You being on the outs wouldn't understand what benefits you receive from God, like air and life, preferring that chance provides, thus only in your imagination minimizing the presence of God.So why isn't the existence of God like that? It ought to be something entirely dispassionate. So why, to you, is it not?
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
The reason its a no true scotsman fallacy is illustrated near the end of your post, when you said " My contention is you believe that because you never joined or allowed God to become a part of you. If you had, you could no more deny him then you can your family, the house you live in, your employment or any other object of reality that's a part of existence."
You are essentially saying that no true christian can ever turn away from god, and that those who do were never really christian.
Thats precisely no true scotsman.
And I dont know any atheists who claim that religious people believe because they choose to. Most believe due to indoctrination, in my experience. They simply were taught from an early age that god and jesus are real, and that to question those things means infinite torture. (my paraphrasing).
Besides, you claim all these things about god, and the simple fact is, I dont believe you. How do we know you arent delusional? You ARE speaking about beings who cannot be detected and supposedly leave no evidence of their interactions that can be tested.
That coming from one who inadvertently admitted he must of believed in god to feel good. Either that or you're flat out lying about your once convinced connection with God. Which would be why it took 31 posts before any atheist changed up tried to say "Hey I thought I felt that too"
Good advice, you should follow it.So stop acting like you have a clue.
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
Do you still believe in santa claus? (this isnt a jab, im going to try to make a point here)
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