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Thread: Mythology And You

  1. #13
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    If you don't understand then what justifies your disagreement with atheists? They could be right about it and you just don't understand.
    I'm not talking about an inability to understand the entire Bible, which is proof to me of Jehovah God, I'm talking about a very small portion of it. Walking on water, for example. The sun standing still. You might refer to these specific phenomenons as "miracles" though I wouldn't as it sort of limits them in a sense, beyond our comprehension. . .

    Its difficult for me to express this in a way which would be clear to you. I've noticed I tend to be a bit verbose. Peter advised me to avoid science due to my admitted ignorance and that's good advice, but let me give you a hypothetical, not for the sake of scientific argument. First though let me point out that its difficult for me to understand you and you to understand me. Even though you were a theist who became an atheist and I an atheist who became a theist.

    I have nothing against science but rather just a genuine disinterest. But I would like to think that there is a great deal about the universe we live in that even science doesn't yet understand. I would certainly hope that, from my own personal theistic perspective, as ignorant of science as I am, that that wouldn't imply either they should make up what they don't understand or abandon the process altogether. That is, as I see it, the beauty of science, of mankind's search for knowledge.

    I have faith in science in that that will not be the end result of it. I do think that they will, and have, from time to time, been tripped up on the dogmatic but that is to be expected.

    I don't . . . I really don't . . . understand why that same sense of adventure and love for knowledge should be diminished in application of the theist from the atheistic world view.

    I think it is rather sad that while the atheist points such a condemning finger at the theist he is oblivious to the cliche of three more fingers pointing back at him.

    And that, my friend, is why the twain may never meet. And that is unfortunate.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

  2. #14
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    I'm not talking about an inability to understand the entire Bible, which is proof to me of Jehovah God, I'm talking about a very small portion of it. Walking on water, for example. The sun standing still. You might refer to these specific phenomenons as "miracles" though I wouldn't as it sort of limits them in a sense, beyond our comprehension. . .
    The very things you cite as difficult to understand are the very things that for some make the Bible more than just a fictionalized history of the Jewish people. The "miracles", those things that violate physics and the laws of the universe as we understand them, are what has convinced people the god of Abraham exists as a real entity. Without this "supernatural" element the Bible is just another story book. I suggest the reason we have trouble understanding "miracles" is because they are anomalies, they stand out from the rest of the story by their fantastic and unnatural status. They don't agree with anything else we know about reality. I contend they don't make sense simply because they are nonsensical. We don't understand how a man could walk on water because we know that no one can do that. No one has ever risen from the dead after three days. We have no evidence in the cosmological record of the Sun going backward in it's course. These things are all fantastic claims made in one book with only the dubious corroboration of a very few other texts contained in the same tome. That ought to make any thinking person skeptical.



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  3. #15
    Volcanic Erupter Cephus's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: The Theist View Post
    It depends upon what you mean by religion. I'm rational and critical, and the Bible encourages that even to its readers of itself. I think atheists tend to think because there are some things in the Bible that we can't understand or are on another level, a spiritual level, then they can't be considered as realistic or possible or rational, and therefore are not being thought of in a critical manner.

    There are things that we don't understand.
    The problem is, no matter how much you claim that you are, you're simply not rational or critical when it comes to the Bible. There are things in the Bible that are not misunderstood, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are simply false. The creation story(s) are bunk. The Noachian Flood never happened. These are things that are not spiritual, they are nonsense. They did not happen and could not happen as written. We compare the claims to the evidence and find the claims entirely lacking. The Gospels can't even get details right, all four disagree significantly on the same events. So why are we supposed to take them seriously? This is especially troubling if the entire Bible is supposed to have been directly inspired by God. Sorry, no pun intended, but the devil is in the details. If God can't even get that right, why should we trust any of it?

    You say you're critical and rational, but where is the evidence of that? Critical, rational people evaluate evidence. Faith is neither critical nor rational. Any critical, rational person on the planet who was concerned about factual reality would take a look at a book like the Bible and declare that it was unreliable. Critical and rational people would not allow their emotions to deceive them and if they did, they would cease being critical or rational with regards to that particular belief. I'm sorry, I just don't see where claiming to be critical or rational and then believing something that is absolutely neither makes any sense.

    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

  4. #16
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
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    There are things that we don't understand.
    True, and that's true for both the theist and non-theist. And yet there's a huge difference between what that means to both camps.

    For the atheist a lack of understanding is the motivation to learn more, to discover better means of uncovering evidence and studying it. It's the cause of our dissatisfaction with only knowing what we know today and the impetus to learn more tomorrow. For those of us who side with science over religious belief the lack of understanding is a force that propels us to build more powerful devises that will enable us to look further and deeper for evidence that might enlarge our knowledge base.

    Meanwhile the theist who doesn't understand facits of his holy book or his doctrine is left with sources thousands of years old and no hope of developing better tools or methods to help him understand better. Oh, he may encounter an interpretation new to him that will make a passage or concept easier to understand, but he's not learning anything new about his god, he's just changed his viewpoint to match that of another believer. It's been well over 2000 years since the god of Abraham was describe and characterized by his followers. Nothing new has been revealed about him since that is granted the same validity as the Bible except in the case of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are often shunned by mainstream Christian denominations. In short, there's nothing new to discover about the god of the Bible. Perhaps for the individual but not for the larger body of believers. Christianity will never be given a new text or revelation about god that will be accepted by all Christians as valid. Nor have they been provided with any means of exploring the claims made in the Bible. No secondary sources concerning the bulk of the New Testament, no writings of Jesus to pour over for hidden meanings, no physical contact with god like those in the Old Testament claim they experienced.



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  5. #17
    Zombified Deity xx_mortekai_xx's Avatar
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    No myths, no luck. I celebrate christmas simply because my family does, and I usually visit during christmastime since I have time off, and I wont say no if they are having a party. Ill even exchange gifts with people in my family. But as far as the mythical connotations of the day, I dont give them credence at all.

    As far as the child being present for the reading of the bible: If believers think that their book is the word of god, then why would they shy away from reading any part of it to their kids?


  6. #18
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: xx_mortekai_xx View Post
    No myths, no luck. I celebrate christmas simply because my family does, and I usually visit during christmastime since I have time off, and I wont say no if they are having a party. Ill even exchange gifts with people in my family. But as far as the mythical connotations of the day, I dont give them credence at all.

    As far as the child being present for the reading of the bible: If believers think that their book is the word of god, then why would they shy away from reading any part of it to their kids?
    Thanks for the response; I think you were the only one that addressed that final point. I think that some people think that even when it comes to the word of God there is material suitable for children and material that isn't.

    When I was a kid, from very young and throughout my youth my parents never objected to us kids using certain words that others thought were "obscene," so, when friends who would use those words when not around their parents would hear me use them they would be shocked to hear me talking like that around my parents. I wasn't doing it to be cool, or impress them, to all of us kids those were words like any other. The Jews had a play on a non-biblical Hebrew word that resulted in them calling Baal the lord of shit. The English word fuck means to lay down seed. The Greek word katabole means exactly the same thing. Jesus said the world (system of man under sin) was founded upon the blood of Abel. A laying down of seed, Abel was the first offspring of Adam and Eve after sin.

    The intellectual and religious tend to object to certain words they have rendered obscene. Usually without knowing why. This is because both intellectualism and religion are primarily about putting on a show. Pretense. Paul used the Greek word hypokrites (hypocrites) in reference to Greek and Roman theater in which mechanical means of amplification were used. Megaphones, costumes, props etc.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

  7. #19
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    The very things you cite as difficult to understand are the very things that for some make the Bible more than just a fictionalized history of the Jewish people.
    Some think Adam was allegorical. Allegorical people don't appear in legal genealogical records as having offspring. No one in Bible times thought of their history as fictionalized and in fact, it was much more honest, frank, willing to admit it's own peoples flaws and failures than any secular history which obviously were influenced by ideology, myth and legend.

    Quote Quote by: Jack View Post
    The "miracles", those things that violate physics and the laws of the universe as we understand them, are what has convinced people the god of Abraham exists as a real entity. Without this "supernatural" element the Bible is just another story book. I suggest the reason we have trouble understanding "miracles" is because they are anomalies, they stand out from the rest of the story by their fantastic and unnatural status. They don't agree with anything else we know about reality. I contend they don't make sense simply because they are nonsensical. We don't understand how a man could walk on water because we know that no one can do that. No one has ever risen from the dead after three days. We have no evidence in the cosmological record of the Sun going backward in it's course. These things are all fantastic claims made in one book with only the dubious corroboration of a very few other texts contained in the same tome. That ought to make any thinking person skeptical.
    I can understand how it would do that, but most of the things that I am skeptical of in the Bible are more practical, like Samson and the lions and the foxes with fires on their tails and honey . . . none of that stuff is unnatural but it sounds like myth.

    What you would call anomalies can, I suspect, be attributed more to things of a spiritual nature. For example, atheists are always on about a talking snake and donkey but those things were not actually talking, spirit creatures were making it look like they were talking. It is no more difficult for me to comprehend such a reality than it is for you to comprehend "Beam me up, Scotty." To a primitive thinking people both may appear like miracles.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

  8. #20
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Spirit creatures?

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  9. #21
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The problem is, no matter how much you claim that you are, you're simply not rational or critical when it comes to the Bible. There are things in the Bible that are not misunderstood, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are simply false.
    Name one without there being simply a disagreement with science.

    I wouldn't say that they are plentiful, but there are a few things, the number of which may depend upon the translation. The KJV, for example, has unicorns and mythical creatures where a more accurate translation would render those properly. There are spurious scriptures. The difference between you and I is I know those things and you simply estimate them out of ignorance of the Bible and original languages.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The creation story(s) are bunk. The Noachian Flood never happened. These are things that are not spiritual, they are nonsense. They did not happen and could not happen as written.
    The creation account properly understood, just in the first chapter of Genesis, differs a great deal than what you may be accustomed to from your understanding of it presented by the "Creationists." Read my linguistic explanation here. The flood is a case where science and the Bible are at odds. If science should change it's position you would not think of it as having never happened. Neither of us can be absolutely sure so there isn't any point in arguing about it.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    We compare the claims to the evidence and find the claims entirely lacking.
    First of all, I doubt the proverbial "we" are qualified to do that. Secondly, evidence is subjective, science infallible and thirdly archaeological science has made many statements against historical facts in the Bible as false only to corroborate the accuracy, integrity and historical value of the Bible.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The Gospels can't even get details right, all four disagree significantly on the same events. So why are we supposed to take them seriously?
    Here is an old response of mine to Dan Barker's Easter Challenge. It's a bit long and I doubt anyone is really interested - no need to respond, just for your possible consideration.

    1. Matthew was the only one to mention dead people emerging from their graves upon Jesus' death. It is assumed that these resurrected dead were walking around.

    The omission of the dead people emerging from the graves by the other writers does not, of course, mean anything. Matthew was the first gospel to be written. In De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III, Jerome says: "Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed." So this (Matthew having been the first gospel) might be a reason for the others having not included the dead people emerging from their graves.

    Any serious scholar of the Bible could tell you that at Matthew 27:52-53 the Greek egeiro means simply raised up rather than resurrected back to life, and in addition to this "they" (meaning the bodies that were walking around) is a pronoun, and in Greek all pronouns have gender and "they" is masculine whereas bodies" (the bodies that were lifted up) is in the neuter. They are not the same.

    Adam Clarke: "It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city."

    Theobald Daechsel's translation: "And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up."

    Johannes Greber's translation: "Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."

    2. At Matthew 28:2 there was an "earthquake" and an angel rolled back the stone slab that closed the tomb off. The other gospel writers don't mention this. Some Bible defenders suggest past perfect, but as the author points out the passage is in the aorist (past) tense.

    The Greek word seismos means quaking, shaking or trembling. (Matthew 27:51, 54; 28:4; Revelation 6:13) The earth quaking from the moving of a rather large stone, for example, might have been trivial enough for some not to mention it.

    A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by James H. Moulton, Vol. I, 1908, p. 109, "the Aorist has a 'punctiliar' action, that is, it regards action as a point: it represents the point of entrance . . . or that of completion . . . or it looks at a whole action simply as having occurred, without distinguishing any steps in its progress."

    Aorist is a peculiar tense in the koiné Greek which means "not bounded" as to time. Verbs in the aorist tense can be rendered in a variety of ways depending upon the context. They could mark a definite occurrence of something at an unstated time in the past, such as with Matthew 28:2. An example of a similar case would be in Matthew 17:3 where the voice announced that the son had been approved. Many translations often miss the exact meaning of texts where the aorist tense is used. Matthew, understood correctly, indicates that the stone had been rolled back before the women arrived, he only mentioned that the stone had been moved and how it was moved whereas the other gospel writers do not.

    The author considers the following as discrepancies. Each of them will be addressed below.

    What time did the women visit the tomb?

    They all convey the idea that it was dark and getting light. Dawn.

    Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
    Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
    Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
    John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

    Who were the Women?

    Some Bible writers mentioned the names of certain women, others do not. The various accounts do not indicate any of the women were not present, they only vary in which names are given.

    Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
    Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
    Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
    John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

    What was their purpose?

    Mark 15:47 and Luke 23:55-56 clearly state that the women were there the night before and rested for the Sabbath, then the following morning (the ancient Hebrew night was divided into "watches" each about 4 hours long. The third and final watch was from about 2:00 a.m. to sunrise. Called the morning watch. By Jesus' time they had adopted the Roman division of 4 watches, the final one being from about 3:00 a.m. to sunrise, though the Hebrew day began at sunset or evening and ended the following sunset or evening.) These verses, as well as John 19:39-40 took place before the morning of Jesus' rising from the dead. They are considered here, even though outside the conditions of the challenge, because the author has confused them for having taken place that morning. At John 19:39-40 upon Jesus' burial it is mentioned that the body had been spiced, but since it was a Sabbath, and the burial was done in haste, the women had returned to do a more thorough job.

    Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)

    Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)

    Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)

    John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

    Was the tomb open when they arrived?

    Matthew gives the account of the stone being moved before the women arrived where the others do not. See 2. above.

    Matthew: No (28:2)
    Mark: Yes (16:4)
    Luke: Yes (24:2)
    John: Yes (20:1)

    Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

    Angels are spirit form and so in order for them to be seen by humans they have to assume physical form, so some see them as men and others know that they are actually angels. They are, in a sense, both angels and men.

    (Genesis 29:1-5) Many of the details of the account given by the four writers of the gospel differ in a way that depends upon who is telling the account to them. There were people coming and going over an indeterminate amount of time, and where one person would see one thing another would see something different from their own perspective of where they fit in the stream of time.

    For example, the guards were there during the night, and some of the women were there. The women left first and then the soldiers left sometime not long before the women returned. The soldiers left when the angels arrived and moved the stone. Mary arrived but left to tell the others what had happened; the apostles arrived - John being younger and faster arrived first, before Peter. The arrival of the others isn't specifically mentioned but they were there. If the Bible skeptic, who seems to expect all four of these accounts to be identical thus defeating the purpose of giving a varied witness account, was set down at any given point within my brief description of a part of what happened it would differ from any other point. Was Mary there or not? Depends upon when you got there. The same applies to Peter and John, and the angels and the guards and Jesus. And their positions.

    Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
    Mark: One young man (16:5)
    Luke: Two men (24:4)
    John: Two angels (20:12)

    Where were these messengers situated?

    See the point directly above. In seeing these small details that differ among various witnesses one could either come to the conclusion that these things didn't take place as the Bible says they did, or that there was an attempt to give accurate accounts from various perspectives in the stream of time which must have been a tremendously exciting and confusing period. And they differed slightly. It would have been easy enough for four Christians to come together and create one account that didn't differ in any way, but what would have been the point? The skeptic would have to take the position that they were so similar they must be fraudulent, and in thinking this they would be right.

    Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)

    Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)

    Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)

    John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

    What did the messenger(s) say?

    Each of the accounts that are given convey the same message. If one tells another what yet another says the words may become ones own but the message is the same. These quotes themselves change over time and translation but the message is the same.

    Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)

    Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)

    Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)

    John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

    Did the women tell what happened?

    There are two things to consider here. First of all, the possibility that since Mary had left to tell the apostles what she had seen, these other women are the ones that Mark is referring to. Mark's account of the events that took place are somewhat more limited than the others and he doesn't mention Mary having left, but the others do. That doesn't mean that he meant to imply that she hadn't, but only that he didn't mention it. Also note that the second half of verse 8 it seems to contradict itself saying that the women did tell Peter. This brings us to the second point of consideration. The second half of verse 8 of Mark chapter 16 to the conclusion of the book is spurious. It was added on later.

    The Codex Regius of the eighth century includes both the short and the long ending adding that they are current in some quarters while not recognizing either as authoritative.

    The Greek Codex Alexandrinus, and Ephraemi rescriptus from the fifth century C.E., as well as the Greek and Latin Bezae Codices from the fifth and sixth centuries C.E., Jerome's Latin Vulgate c. 400 C.E., Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac and Syriac Peshitta, Christian Aramaic both from the fifth century C.E. add the long conclusion, but the Greek Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican ms 1209, both from the fourth century C.E. as well as the Cinaitic Syriac codex from the fourth and fifth century C.E., and Armenian Version from the fourth to thirteenth century C.E. omits them. It would seem, especially when examining the context, that these verses were added sometime during this period.

    Matthew: Yes (28:8)

    Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)

    Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)

    John: Yes (20:18)

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

    During the confusion of the events at the tomb Mary may have had, at any given point, some confusion about what was going on. That is completely understandable. Another point to consider is the body of Jesus itself. Jesus had one body which was sacrificed for all time. That body was now lifeless and taken away by angels, because, what is the point of sacrificing the body only to bring it back 3 days later? The man Jesus had died and was no more, but the spirit form that had existed before the man was alive again and had to take on another body in a similar way as all of the angels that were there at the tomb. This is why Mary and others didn't recognize him at first; she thought that he was the gardener.

    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)

    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)

    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)

    John: No (20:2)

    When did Mary first see Jesus?

    Notice that Mathew 28:9 doesn't mention Mary, only the women, and John mentions that Mary had left to tell Peter what had happened. Mark 16:9-10 are spurious. (See above "Did the women tell what happened?"

    Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)

    Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)

    John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

    Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

    In some older translations the Greek hapto which can mean "touch," but also "cling to, lay hold of" in English. Since Jesus allowed others to touch him it appears that in the case of Mary, she had been clinging to Jesus. She no doubt had been upset that he had died and didn't want to let him go, not understanding that he was going to go to Heaven with his Father to fulfill the purpose he had told them about, which is why he explained to her that that is what he needed to do. The German Elberfelder and Luther translations, the French Crampon and Liénar Bibles, Italian Riveduta and Diodati and Spanish Moderna, Valera and Nácar-Colunga translations all use the term "touching" as well. The New English Bible, Catholic La Bible de Jérusalem (The Jerusalem Bible) in French and English use the more contextually accurate "stop clinging" or "let go of" terminology which agrees with An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, Vol. IV, p. 145. The Spanish Ediciones Paulinas uses "Suéltame," meaning "Let go of me."

    Matthew: Yes (28:9)

    John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    This is especially troubling if the entire Bible is supposed to have been directly inspired by God. Sorry, no pun intended, but the devil is in the details. If God can't even get that right, why should we trust any of it?
    Consider the possibility that he did get it right and that you got it wrong.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    You say you're critical and rational, but where is the evidence of that? Critical, rational people evaluate evidence.
    Correct. And the rest of us just make uninformed statements of opinion. If I ask you why you could ever possibly question, for example, the prophecy of Cyrus in the Bible how would you do that? Well just show me. Ignore everything else in this post and tell me why you think the 400 year old prophecy came true and how that happened. Tell me why you think it is bunk.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

  10. #22
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The problem is, no matter how much you claim that you are, you're simply not rational or critical when it comes to the Bible. There are things in the Bible that are not misunderstood, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are simply false.
    Name one without there being simply a disagreement with science.

    I wouldn't say that they are plentiful, but there are a few things, the number of which may depend upon the translation. The KJV, for example, has unicorns and mythical creatures where a more accurate translation would render those properly. There are spurious scriptures. The difference between you and I is I know those things and you simply estimate them out of ignorance of the Bible and original languages.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The creation story(s) are bunk. The Noachian Flood never happened. These are things that are not spiritual, they are nonsense. They did not happen and could not happen as written.
    The creation account properly understood, just in the first chapter of Genesis, differs a great deal than what you may be accustomed to from your understanding of it presented by the "Creationists." Read my linguistic explanation here. The flood is a case where science and the Bible are at odds. If science should change it's position you would not think of it as having never happened. Neither of us can be absolutely sure so there isn't any point in arguing about it.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    We compare the claims to the evidence and find the claims entirely lacking.
    First of all, I doubt the proverbial "we" are qualified to do that. Secondly, evidence is subjective, science isn't infallible and thirdly archaeological science has made many statements against historical facts in the Bible as false only to corroborate the accuracy, integrity and historical value of the Bible.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    The Gospels can't even get details right, all four disagree significantly on the same events. So why are we supposed to take them seriously?
    Here is an old response of mine to Dan Barker's Easter Challenge. It's a bit long and I doubt anyone is really interested - no need to respond, just for your possible consideration.

    1. Matthew was the only one to mention dead people emerging from their graves upon Jesus' death. It is assumed that these resurrected dead were walking around.

    The omission of the dead people emerging from the graves by the other writers does not, of course, mean anything. Matthew was the first gospel to be written. In De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III, Jerome says: "Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed." So this (Matthew having been the first gospel) might be a reason for the others having not included the dead people emerging from their graves.

    Any serious scholar of the Bible could tell you that at Matthew 27:52-53 the Greek egeiro means simply raised up rather than resurrected back to life, and in addition to this "they" (meaning the bodies that were walking around) is a pronoun, and in Greek all pronouns have gender and "they" is masculine whereas bodies" (the bodies that were lifted up) is in the neuter. They are not the same.

    Adam Clarke: "It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city."

    Theobald Daechsel's translation: "And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up."

    Johannes Greber's translation: "Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."

    2. At Matthew 28:2 there was an "earthquake" and an angel rolled back the stone slab that closed the tomb off. The other gospel writers don't mention this. Some Bible defenders suggest past perfect, but as the author points out the passage is in the aorist (past) tense.

    The Greek word seismos means quaking, shaking or trembling. (Matthew 27:51, 54; 28:4; Revelation 6:13) The earth quaking from the moving of a rather large stone, for example, might have been trivial enough for some not to mention it.

    A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by James H. Moulton, Vol. I, 1908, p. 109, "the Aorist has a 'punctiliar' action, that is, it regards action as a point: it represents the point of entrance . . . or that of completion . . . or it looks at a whole action simply as having occurred, without distinguishing any steps in its progress."

    Aorist is a peculiar tense in the koiné Greek which means "not bounded" as to time. Verbs in the aorist tense can be rendered in a variety of ways depending upon the context. They could mark a definite occurrence of something at an unstated time in the past, such as with Matthew 28:2. An example of a similar case would be in Matthew 17:3 where the voice announced that the son had been approved. Many translations often miss the exact meaning of texts where the aorist tense is used. Matthew, understood correctly, indicates that the stone had been rolled back before the women arrived, he only mentioned that the stone had been moved and how it was moved whereas the other gospel writers do not.

    The author considers the following as discrepancies. Each of them will be addressed below.

    What time did the women visit the tomb?

    They all convey the idea that it was dark and getting light. Dawn.

    Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
    Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
    Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
    John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

    Who were the Women?

    Some Bible writers mentioned the names of certain women, others do not. The various accounts do not indicate any of the women were not present, they only vary in which names are given.

    Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
    Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
    Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
    John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

    What was their purpose?

    Mark 15:47 and Luke 23:55-56 clearly state that the women were there the night before and rested for the Sabbath, then the following morning (the ancient Hebrew night was divided into "watches" each about 4 hours long. The third and final watch was from about 2:00 a.m. to sunrise. Called the morning watch. By Jesus' time they had adopted the Roman division of 4 watches, the final one being from about 3:00 a.m. to sunrise, though the Hebrew day began at sunset or evening and ended the following sunset or evening.) These verses, as well as John 19:39-40 took place before the morning of Jesus' rising from the dead. They are considered here, even though outside the conditions of the challenge, because the author has confused them for having taken place that morning. At John 19:39-40 upon Jesus' burial it is mentioned that the body had been spiced, but since it was a Sabbath, and the burial was done in haste, the women had returned to do a more thorough job.

    Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)

    Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)

    Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)

    John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

    Was the tomb open when they arrived?

    Matthew gives the account of the stone being moved before the women arrived where the others do not. See 2. above.

    Matthew: No (28:2)
    Mark: Yes (16:4)
    Luke: Yes (24:2)
    John: Yes (20:1)

    Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

    Angels are spirit form and so in order for them to be seen by humans they have to assume physical form, so some see them as men and others know that they are actually angels. They are, in a sense, both angels and men.

    (Genesis 29:1-5) Many of the details of the account given by the four writers of the gospel differ in a way that depends upon who is telling the account to them. There were people coming and going over an indeterminate amount of time, and where one person would see one thing another would see something different from their own perspective of where they fit in the stream of time.

    For example, the guards were there during the night, and some of the women were there. The women left first and then the soldiers left sometime not long before the women returned. The soldiers left when the angels arrived and moved the stone. Mary arrived but left to tell the others what had happened; the apostles arrived - John being younger and faster arrived first, before Peter. The arrival of the others isn't specifically mentioned but they were there. If the Bible skeptic, who seems to expect all four of these accounts to be identical thus defeating the purpose of giving a varied witness account, was set down at any given point within my brief description of a part of what happened it would differ from any other point. Was Mary there or not? Depends upon when you got there. The same applies to Peter and John, and the angels and the guards and Jesus. And their positions.

    Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
    Mark: One young man (16:5)
    Luke: Two men (24:4)
    John: Two angels (20:12)

    Where were these messengers situated?

    See the point directly above. In seeing these small details that differ among various witnesses one could either come to the conclusion that these things didn't take place as the Bible says they did, or that there was an attempt to give accurate accounts from various perspectives in the stream of time which must have been a tremendously exciting and confusing period. And they differed slightly. It would have been easy enough for four Christians to come together and create one account that didn't differ in any way, but what would have been the point? The skeptic would have to take the position that they were so similar they must be fraudulent, and in thinking this they would be right.

    Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)

    Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)

    Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)

    John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

    What did the messenger(s) say?

    Each of the accounts that are given convey the same message. If one tells another what yet another says the words may become ones own but the message is the same. These quotes themselves change over time and translation but the message is the same.

    Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)

    Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)

    Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)

    John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

    Did the women tell what happened?

    There are two things to consider here. First of all, the possibility that since Mary had left to tell the apostles what she had seen, these other women are the ones that Mark is referring to. Mark's account of the events that took place are somewhat more limited than the others and he doesn't mention Mary having left, but the others do. That doesn't mean that he meant to imply that she hadn't, but only that he didn't mention it. Also note that the second half of verse 8 it seems to contradict itself saying that the women did tell Peter. This brings us to the second point of consideration. The second half of verse 8 of Mark chapter 16 to the conclusion of the book is spurious. It was added on later.

    The Codex Regius of the eighth century includes both the short and the long ending adding that they are current in some quarters while not recognizing either as authoritative.

    The Greek Codex Alexandrinus, and Ephraemi rescriptus from the fifth century C.E., as well as the Greek and Latin Bezae Codices from the fifth and sixth centuries C.E., Jerome's Latin Vulgate c. 400 C.E., Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac and Syriac Peshitta, Christian Aramaic both from the fifth century C.E. add the long conclusion, but the Greek Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican ms 1209, both from the fourth century C.E. as well as the Cinaitic Syriac codex from the fourth and fifth century C.E., and Armenian Version from the fourth to thirteenth century C.E. omits them. It would seem, especially when examining the context, that these verses were added sometime during this period.

    Matthew: Yes (28:8)

    Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)

    Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)

    John: Yes (20:18)

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

    During the confusion of the events at the tomb Mary may have had, at any given point, some confusion about what was going on. That is completely understandable. Another point to consider is the body of Jesus itself. Jesus had one body which was sacrificed for all time. That body was now lifeless and taken away by angels, because, what is the point of sacrificing the body only to bring it back 3 days later? The man Jesus had died and was no more, but the spirit form that had existed before the man was alive again and had to take on another body in a similar way as all of the angels that were there at the tomb. This is why Mary and others didn't recognize him at first; she thought that he was the gardener.

    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)

    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)

    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)

    John: No (20:2)

    When did Mary first see Jesus?

    Notice that Mathew 28:9 doesn't mention Mary, only the women, and John mentions that Mary had left to tell Peter what had happened. Mark 16:9-10 are spurious. (See above "Did the women tell what happened?"

    Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)

    Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)

    John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

    Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

    In some older translations the Greek hapto which can mean "touch," but also "cling to, lay hold of" in English. Since Jesus allowed others to touch him it appears that in the case of Mary, she had been clinging to Jesus. She no doubt had been upset that he had died and didn't want to let him go, not understanding that he was going to go to Heaven with his Father to fulfill the purpose he had told them about, which is why he explained to her that that is what he needed to do. The German Elberfelder and Luther translations, the French Crampon and Liénar Bibles, Italian Riveduta and Diodati and Spanish Moderna, Valera and Nácar-Colunga translations all use the term "touching" as well. The New English Bible, Catholic La Bible de Jérusalem (The Jerusalem Bible) in French and English use the more contextually accurate "stop clinging" or "let go of" terminology which agrees with An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, Vol. IV, p. 145. The Spanish Ediciones Paulinas uses "Suéltame," meaning "Let go of me."

    Matthew: Yes (28:9)

    John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    This is especially troubling if the entire Bible is supposed to have been directly inspired by God. Sorry, no pun intended, but the devil is in the details. If God can't even get that right, why should we trust any of it?
    Consider the possibility that he did get it right and that you got it wrong.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    You say you're critical and rational, but where is the evidence of that? Critical, rational people evaluate evidence.
    Correct. And the rest of us just make uninformed statements of opinion. If I ask you why you could ever possibly question, for example, the prophecy of Cyrus in the Bible how would you do that? Well just show me. Ignore everything else in this post and tell me why you think the 400 year old prophecy came true and how that happened. Tell me why you think it is bunk.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

  11. #23
    Volcanic Erupter Cephus's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: The Theist View Post
    Name one without there being simply a disagreement with science.
    Ah, you want us to ignore all the places that it's demonstrably wrong and... what?

    I wouldn't say that they are plentiful, but there are a few things, the number of which may depend upon the translation. The KJV, for example, has unicorns and mythical creatures where a more accurate translation would render those properly. There are spurious scriptures. The difference between you and I is I know those things and you simply estimate them out of ignorance of the Bible and original languages.
    It has nothing to do with unicorns and the like, there are huge numbers of things that we can examine the evidence that these events would necessarily have to have left behind and find that... oh wait, there's no evidence, or that the evidence shows something entirely different than what's in the Bible. You're left with two options, either God purposely made it look like the evidence didn't support what's described in the Bible, or what's described in the Bible never happened. Which one is more palatable to you? God the liar or the Bible is wrong?

    The creation account properly understood, just in the first chapter of Genesis, differs a great deal than what you may be accustomed to from your understanding of it presented by the "Creationists." Read my linguistic explanation here. The flood is a case where science and the Bible are at odds. If science should change it's position you would not think of it as having never happened. Neither of us can be absolutely sure so there isn't any point in arguing about it.
    No, it's not a case where science and the Bible are at odds, it's a place where the Bible cannot conceivably be right unless you're willing to argue that God is purposely lying to everyone and hiding the evidence. Stop hiding from reality.

    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

  12. #24
    Flightless Waterfowl The Theist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    Ah, you want us to ignore all the places that it's demonstrably wrong and... what?
    I want a level playing field. I don't expect you to assume that because the Bible said it it must be right and I expect the same from you regarding science.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    It has nothing to do with unicorns and the like, there are huge numbers of things that we can examine the evidence that these events would necessarily have to have left behind and find that... oh wait, there's no evidence, or that the evidence shows something entirely different than what's in the Bible. You're left with two options, either God purposely made it look like the evidence didn't support what's described in the Bible, or what's described in the Bible never happened. Which one is more palatable to you? God the liar or the Bible is wrong?
    Atheists tend to make the sweeping generalizations that sounds like all sorts of evidence is available, but I repeatedly asked for it only to receive more vague baseless claims of the same. When the "evidence" presented by the atheists is closely examined one can only come to the logical conclusion that either there isn't any or it exists only in their heads.

    I noticed you ignored my request to explain the "evidence" against the Biblical prophecy of Cyrus. Why? Because you don't care about the Biblical prophecy of Cyrus. Without even knowing what it might be you couldn't be bothered to look at it objectively or at least dismiss it with all of the logic, reason, and evidence against it when instead all you have to do is assume that it is in the Bible so its probably nonsense.

    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    No, it's not a case where science and the Bible are at odds, it's a place where the Bible cannot conceivably be right unless you're willing to argue that God is purposely lying to everyone and hiding the evidence. Stop hiding from reality.
    Its all right there, buddy. All you have to do is open your eyes and ears beyond what only you want to see and hear.

    The Theist | Examining The Real Meaning Of The Bible

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