Understanding the Old Testament

[Apeman81]

*buzz* wrong. There are tons of arguments and essays all across the internat and the published literature, going back oh say....2000 years....regarding what laws are done away with and which are not.

Would you like me to cite you a library of examples? I shouldn't have to, you should know this.

For brevity sake, provide an example of 1 tenet of the Mosaic Law that you have been told applies as a requisite to God's saving grace.

As you may recall, though the original comment concerning Homosexuality is found in Leviticus, I demonstrated that a new testament passage demonstrates that it remains a behavior that precludes grace.

Perhaps through comparison, insight can be gained

[Questatement]

*buzz* wrong. There are tons of arguments and essays all across the internat and the published literature, going back oh say....2000 years....regarding what laws are done away with and which are not.

Would you like me to cite you a library of examples? I shouldn't have to, you should know this.

It seems to me that you're only argument here is that universal agreement lacks, therefore, there is no way to determine the truth of the matter?

When in fact, any given truth exists regardless of universal agreement. Can you point to any single 'reality/truth' which holds universal agreement among mankind? If not, do any truths still exist?

[finder]

*buzz* wrong. There are tons of arguments and essays all across the internat and the published literature, going back oh say....2000 years....regarding what laws are done away with and which are not.

Would you like me to cite you a library of examples? I shouldn't have to, you should know this.

The theists I had in mind were the ones conversing on this thread, not all of them on the planet.

And you totally missed what I said, sigh.

[hensatri]

For brevity sake, provide an example of 1 tenet of the Mosaic Law that you have been told applies as a requisite to God's saving grace.

As you may recall, though the original comment concerning Homosexuality is found in Leviticus, I demonstrated that a new testament passage demonstrates that it remains a behavior that precludes grace.

Perhaps through comparison, insight can be gained

If you are going to say that only that which is required for grace constitutes the law then we may as well toss aside every law other than acceptance of Christ and forgiveness of sin. Every other law (aside from apostasy, even though some even denounce the finality of that damnation) can be broken pretty much ad naseum provided there is a Christ-centered forgiveness prior to death.

So then to answer your question.....none. No law, old or new, other than the requisite atonement through Christ.

Do you really want to promote that standard? And even if you do, a majority of Christians don't.

[hensatri]

The theists I had in mind were the ones conversing on this thread, not all of them on the planet.

I somehow doubt there is agreement even amongst the theists in is thread as to what laws are still in place and which ones have been either done away with or nullified. Of course I don't have an exensive cataloging of your personal beliefs to cite, so I can't prove that, but I strongly suspect it to be the case.

[hensatri]

It seems to me that you're only argument here is that universal agreement lacks, therefore, there is no way to determine the truth of the matter?

When in fact, any given truth exists regardless of universal agreement. Can you point to any single 'reality/truth' which holds universal agreement among mankind? If not, do any truths still exist?

You are close but have the order reversed. I would say there is no way to determine the truth of the matter, thus universal agreement lacks. Well not even universal agreement, it may be a different story if there was a main obvious interpretation and only a few obviously stretching alternate views, but there are 30,000 Christian denominations, most equipped with their own well researched, well reasoned, and well supported by biblical passages, views on the matter.

The fractured nature of the faith is a by product of the incoherence and unacceptability of the text. If the laws and teachings of the bible were universally good and moral, then there would be no need to write essays and theological dissections to explain why slavery was ok then but not ok now, or why only ancient middle eastern witches had to die but modern ones don't. The book is obviously a product of its time and locale, and the human authorship, but the supposed authority of the text forces believers into this foolish exercise of Desperatly twisting the theology to fit with their personal taste, while all the time denying that is the case.

[Questatement]

So where do you draw your lines on what can be considered true? By percentage? Head count? Overall percentage of agreement of the whole?

Do these vary based on the subject matter at hand? The depth of the matter being considered?

I think it's easy to be a nay-sayer but what about defining your parameters for potential truth?

[Apeman81]

If you are going to say that only that which is required for grace constitutes the law then we may as well toss aside every law other than acceptance of Christ and forgiveness of sin. Every other law (aside from apostasy, even though some even denounce the finality of that damnation) can be broken pretty much ad naseum provided there is a Christ-centered forgiveness prior to death.

So then to answer your question.....none. No law, old or new, other than the requisite atonement through Christ.

Do you really want to promote that standard? And even if you do, a majority of Christians don't.

You create a false conclusion. To atone through Christ does not allow you to behave in any manner your wish. Christ and Christian teaching sets a far higher standard.

The wages of sin remain death. One cannot willingly live in the flesh, committing whatever sinful acts he desires, counting on Christ to atone for them. One must confess his sin, and repent from it. God knows our heart and will not be mocked.

I recall asking, provide an example of 1 tenet of the Mosaic Law that you have been told applies as a requisite to God's saving grace. Would you like to provide an example?

[hensatri]

So where do you draw your lines on what can be considered true? By percentage? Head count? Overall percentage of agreement of the whole?

Do these vary based on the subject matter at hand? The depth of the matter being considered?

I think it's easy to be a nay-sayer but what about defining your parameters for potential truth?

Sufficient evidence.

[hensatri]

You create a false conclusion. To atone through Christ does not allow you to behave in any manner your wish. Christ and Christian teaching sets a far higher standard.

The wages of sin remain death. One cannot willingly live in the flesh, committing whatever sinful acts he desires, counting on Christ to atone for them. One must confess his sin, and repent from it. God knows our heart and will not be mocked.

I recall asking, provide an example of 1 tenet of the Mosaic Law that you have been told applies as a requisite to God's saving grace. Would you like to provide an example?

I have never been informated of any law that is a prerequisite for grace other than humble repentance to Christ. I suppose that would include mosaic law.

But again, the only heavenly criteria is being washed clean by Jesus, in which case what laws matter at all? Why concern ourselves with this effort if one act washes the rest away?

Now you seem relativly certain that there is a higher bar, that even with forgiveness and repentance there are still things you can't do or ways your can't live.......there are thousands of born again Christians with libraries of literature that will quite convincingly argue that there is no crime or sin so great, or lifestyle so depraved, that atonement rough Christ won't wash it away, and at it is never too late to receive said grace even upon your death bed.

You may disagree, but I am sure their cases are just as scripturaly sound as yours, perhaps even more so, and thus we arrive right back at the issue of each Christian tailoring their own Jesus suit to fit their needs.

[Jack]

The wages of sin remain death.

A factor of life is death.

God...will not be mocked.

Why, a fragile ego? Humans tolerate being mocked without resorting to whole scale destruction of the mocker, why can't god?

[Questatement]

Sufficient evidence.

Fair enough.

As an atheist, I would not expect you to be a bible scholar so maybe we should start with something simple and work up from there? The evidence presented here is the text of the bible and feel free to add in any text that I may have overlooked.

Genesis 6
So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. So make yourself an ark of cypresswood… “

I think that we can agree that God is, at a minimum, speaking to Noah with this command. Now, based on the following passage, who else might God be commanding to build an ark to withstand a global flood as found in the previous passage?

Genesis 9
Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”