"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [SIZE=2]18[/SIZE] For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Can someone explain how Jesus has fulfilled and therefore nullified the law?
Look not above, there is no answer there;
Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;
Near is as near to God as any Far,
And Here is just the same deceit as There.
And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.
- The Rubaiyat
While Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the law and prophesies of the Old Testament, they don't necessarily believe he nullified them. The law still stands but Jesus is the completion of the reason god handed down laws to the Jews. Christians perceive the Old Testament like an incomplete novel of which Jesus is both the final chapter and main character, not revealed until the final chapter. Believing in Jesus' act of redeeming mankind from the penalties of sin supersedes the need to observe the laws like Jews do. Belief in Jesus overrides the law, he doesn't make them null and void.
The above is based on what I learned and taught as an evangelical Catholic in the '70s. Some denominations may have another take on the question.
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Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
[John F. Kennedy]
The principal value of debate lies in the development of logical thought processes, and the ability to articulate your positions publicly.
[Senator Dick Clark of Iowa]
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
[Terry Pratchett]
Some may say overriding the law and nullifying the law were the same. I can't find a verse were Jesus overrides the law, in fact in many chapters he encouraged others to follow the laws (and presumably this means all of them). So what effect should we suppose this fullfilment has on the old laws?Quote by: Jack
"Believing in Jesus' act of redeeming mankind from the penalties of sin supersedes the need to observe the laws like Jews do". I've always seen this act as having misleadingly little clarity on the basis that people who believe in Jesus dying for our sins can still and do commit murder and rape and other atrocities, and apparently can get away with it by god because the old law has been superseded by, what appears to be, a very flawed and unclear concept. To be forgiven for murder simply by asking doesn't do too much justice to the victim. Should Richard the first have asked for forgiveness for murdering the Muslims at Acer, he would've got it!
Look not above, there is no answer there;
Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;
Near is as near to God as any Far,
And Here is just the same deceit as There.
And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.
- The Rubaiyat
That's the inherent selfishness of redemption. It's all about "me being forgiven" and fails to provide justice at all. Christianity is a reaction to the penalties of not following the law of the Old Testament, it's a way to provide a pass for not being obedient. Because the O.T. god is portrayed as so brutal and extreme in his punishments, both the Jews and Christians want a way to avoid his attention. Christians think they've found a way by believing in Jesus. Jews are still screwed.To be forgiven for murder simply by asking doesn't do too much justice to the victim.
The Forum Rules
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
[John F. Kennedy]
The principal value of debate lies in the development of logical thought processes, and the ability to articulate your positions publicly.
[Senator Dick Clark of Iowa]
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
[Terry Pratchett]
We are not forgiven because the law is superceded. Violation of God's laws requires death. When we repent of our sins and put our faith in Jesus his death serves to pay the penalty that we deserve so the demands of the law are satisfied.
See the understanding the Old Testament thread
The tree of liberty is hungry. Let's feed it well in the next election.
He lived and satisfied the whole law in obedience even to the death as required of Yahweah to die. He made the prophecies reality to the T and done away with the covenant that was added ie the LAW of the marriage ceremony that bound Israelites and Yahweah to a covenant of death to fulfill his word/covenants in the past and expressions of affection and example since the Garden of Eden.
Yahweah the living Jesus is the only PROMISE KEEPER.
Consider all of the following:
04137:
4137 pleroo play-ro'-o from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. see GREEK for 4134
Keep in mind that the new covenant (agreement) between man and God did not begin until after Jesus' death so the entire pre-resurrection ministry of Jesus was still under the terms of OT law. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, although written many years after the ministry of Jesus, were are all written in the present tense with very few commentaries (in the past tense) so these three books are present tense under the law still. Therefore, although Jesus speaks of what is to soon come, to be true to the agreement between God and man at that time, Jesus would have to uphold OT law.
John, OTOH, is written past tense and with generous commentary so you will find new covenant dynamics are the rule there and that it coincides perfectly with every other NT book besides the aforementioned.
“The heart has its reason which reason does not know.” - Blaise Pascal
"chewtabacachewtabacachewtabaca-spit" - Blake Shelton
Can you not enlarge your thinking enough to recognize that forgiveness is about the perpetrator of the crime and not the victim? Have you not done wrong by someone? You think the seriousness of the crime should determine eligibility of forgiveness. If you can be forgiven for picking a fight and punching someone in the nose why not a killer? Who are you to judge? God promises justice for the victim but without forgiveness "justice" is reduced to revenge.To be forgiven for murder simply by asking doesn't do too much justice to the victim.
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
All accidents are forgivable. However, when someone intentionally hurts you, they reveal something about who they are that is never going to be completely forgotten. How they treat you reveals their spiritual defects.
I've done unforgivable things and I have had them done to me. Unless the perpetrator truly changes, which takes time and can be difficult to detect, they cannot and should not be forgiven.
They all want to change, you know. Almost all the bad people in the world wish they could be different, even some of the sociopaths, I think. A God that can fix us would certainly be nice. However, in the end, we're all damned.
The more you complain, the less I care about your problems.
True. At least it's humanly impossible to forget. And it does reveal spiritual defects.
We can all say that about ourselves. But where I hold a different opinion is your point about forgiveness or rather the lack there of. Forgiveness frees and heals the one extending the forgiveness as much if not more the the recipient. It's a horrible thing to be a prisoner of hate.I've done unforgivable things and I have had them done to me. Unless the perpetrator truly changes, which takes time and can be difficult to detect, they cannot and should not be forgiven.
Well we all do face damnation but where I part with you again is God. He has offered to "fix" us. He just requires faith because in our faith we reveal our true selves and desires. For instance if one doesn't believe in God it is because they are content not to and desire things to remain that way.They all want to change, you know. Almost all the bad people in the world wish they could be different, even some of the sociopaths, I think. A God that can fix us would certainly be nice. However, in the end, we're all damned.
"The trouble with people is not so much with their ignorance as it is with their knowing so many things that are not so." ~ William Alanson White
There are three issues with this logic.
First, any sin I commit is finite therefore warrants a finite punishment. Even if I sinned every millisecond of my life I don't deserve an infinite punishment because I only live a finite life. I should be punished for my sins and my sins only. Any punishment after that would be unjust and cruel.
The second issue is that the penalty Jesus paid is not sufficient so even if I put my faith in him I still deserve eternal damnation. The demands of the law are still not satisfied.
Christians say that all humans are sinner. Each sinner warrants the penalty of eternal damnation.
Jesus lived 32 years. Even if he suffered his entire life he has not even paid the price for one of his disciple's sins let alone the sins of every human who who has walked this earth.
How does 32 years equal an eternity?
The type of punishment that hell describes is drastically different then the type of punishment Jesus underwent.
Third to say that Jesus suffered more than any other man is a statement of blind faith without any evidence.
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