Matthew 5:17

[truthreality]

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ^{[SIZE=2]18[/SIZE]} For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Can someone explain how Jesus has fulfilled and therefore nullified the law?

Many Jews reject Jesus as not only the messiah but also as a legitimate prophet. From their viewpoint Jesus not only did not fulfill the law but also broke it.

It should be noted that the God of the Old Testament states that his law is eternal and unchangeable.

For example, one of the commandments in Exodus is to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Numbers 15:32-36 states that violating the Sabbath warrants death. Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus violates the Sabbath by picking the grain. John 9:14 and 16 he violates the Sabbath again. Matthew 12:9-13 He violates the Sabbath by healing man's arm who was not in danger of losing his life.

[theophilus]

First, any sin I commit is finite therefore warrants a finite punishment. Even if I sinned every millisecond of my life I don't deserve an infinite punishment because I only live a finite life. I should be punished for my sins and my sins only. Any punishment after that would be unjust and cruel.

But every sin you commit is an act of rebellion against an infinite God. Also there is more to our sins than just the specific acts we commit. Our sins show what our true nature really is. Only God is able to judge the seriousness of our sins and to determine what punishment we deserve because of them.

The second issue is that the penalty Jesus paid is not sufficient so even if I put my faith in him I still deserve eternal damnation. The demands of the law are still not satisfied.

The law provided that sins could be atoned for by the shedding of blood of an acceptable sacrifice. Animals were sacrifice but these were only intended to be pictures of what Jesus would do when he shed his blood to pay for our sins. Those who offered these sacrifices showed by their actions that they believed God would provide a perfect sacrifice that would completely remove their sins.

[truthreality]

But every sin you commit is an act of rebellion against an infinite God. Also there is more to our sins than just the specific acts we commit. Our sins show what our true nature really is. Only God is able to judge the seriousness of our sins and to determine what punishment we deserve because of them.

The sin of rebellion is still a finite sin.

I have committed good deeds for the infinite God as well. By your logic I deserve eternal salvation as well then.

Sins show our real nature? I thought our real nature was God. Genesis 1:27 "God created man in his own image."

Sin doesn't show what our true nature is. It shows the nature of an impure mind.

The law provided that sins could be atoned for by the shedding of blood of an acceptable sacrifice. Animals were sacrifice but these were only intended to be pictures of what Jesus would do when he shed his blood to pay for our sins. Those who offered these sacrifices showed by their actions that they believed God would provide a perfect sacrifice that would completely remove their sins.

Again, Jesus no where even close paid for our sins. There are probably individuals who have paid a higher price for their own sins then Jesus paid for the entire world.

Part of a just system is that everyone is judged by the same standard.

What happened to the people before Jesus? Are they eternally damned?

[Questatement]

For example, one of the commandments in Exodus is to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Numbers 15:32-36 states that violating the Sabbath warrants death. Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus violates the Sabbath by picking the grain.

In that passage, Jesus was accused of as much. What was his response and was it justified?

[theophilus]

The sin of rebellion is still a finite sin.

What qualifies you to tell whether a sin is finite or infinite? This is a judgment that only God can make.

I have committed good deeds for the infinite God as well. By your logic I deserve eternal salvation as well then.

We are commanded to love God will all our mind and power. We don't deserve any reward for that because that is simply the purpose for which God created it. No matter how good our lives are we always fall short of what God requires.

Sins show our real nature? I thought our real nature was God. Genesis 1:27 "God created man in his own image."

We were created in God's image but sin has infected the whole human race so we no longer reflect that nature as we should.

Again, Jesus no where even close paid for our sins. There are probably individuals who have paid a higher price for their own sins then Jesus paid for the entire world.

Whatever we suffer for our sins it will fall short of what we deserve. Jesus was able to pay for our sins because he himself was completely sinless.

What happened to the people before Jesus? Are they eternally damned?

God revealed that he would send a redeemer to pay for our sins. The animal sacrifices he commanded were intended to serve as a picture of what that redemption would be like. People showed their faith in God's promise by offering the sacrifices he commanded and faith has always been the method by which we receive salvation.

[truthreality]

What qualifies you to tell whether a sin is finite or infinite? This is a judgment that only God can make.

This seems to be the universal question Christians ask to try to stump their opponents. What qualifies you to know what God's judgement is?

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
(Romans 1:20)

On one hand you say it is not possible to know what God's judgement is but on the other hand you say it is clear.

I am qualified to make such a decision because God has blessed me with an intellect, an ability to reason and an idea of justice. This is why God holds me responsible for my sins.

What qualifies the Bible to say what God's judgement is?

We are commanded to love God will all our mind and power. We don't deserve any reward for that because that is simply the purpose for which God created it. No matter how good our lives are we always fall short of what God requires.

What qualifies you to make such a judgement?

Love by the mind is still limited. Eventually we die and so does our mind. Then how are we supposed to love?The nature of God is love. Our inherent nature is God. Therefore our nature is love. We are love. There is no need for an object of love. There is no separation between God and our true nature. It is the impure mind that creates this distinction.

Christians don't understand the purpose of suffering. God doesn't let us suffer for the sake of suffering. Suffering serves a purpose. It purifies us and teaches us.

It's similar to behavior modification among animals. To reinforce good behavior, scientists reward the animal, to exterminate bad behavior, scientists punish the animal. Slowly the animal begins to migrate towards more and more good behavior.

After a certain point suffering looses it's purpose.

We don't deserve a reward because the reward is our ultimate nature.

We were created in God's image but sin has infected the whole human race so we no longer reflect that nature as we should.

So you admit that your nature is God?

Whatever we suffer for our sins it will fall short of what we deserve. Jesus was able to pay for our sins because he himself was completely sinless.

What qualifies you to say this?

There is not enough information about Jesus to come to say that Jesus was sinless.

The idea is that Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself. That means in order to pay for the sins he would have to pay the correct price. That's at least an eternity. He lived only 32 years.

God revealed that he would send a redeemer to pay for our sins. The animal sacrifices he commanded were intended to serve as a picture of what that redemption would be like. People showed their faith in God's promise by offering the sacrifices he commanded and faith has always been the method by which we receive salvation.

What qualifies you to jump to such a conclusion?

If God knew it was necessary for a redeemer why did God wait so long to send the savior of the world? Why did he reveal himself to a select few if he is the savior of the world?

What qualifies you that you know God more than anyone else?

Your relationship is based purely on faith.

[truthreality]

In that passage, Jesus was accused of as much. What was his response and was it justified?

My understanding is that Jesus's justification did not sit well with the Jews or the Rabbis.

[RedDaze]

truthreality:Each sinner warrants the penalty of eternal damnation.

Jesus lived 32 years. Even if he suffered his entire life he has not even paid the price for one of his disciple's sins let alone the sins of every human who who has walked this earth.

How does 32 years equal an eternity?

The type of punishment that hell describes is drastically different then the type of punishment Jesus underwent.

Third to say that Jesus suffered more than any other man is a statement of blind faith without any evidence.

I have numerous issues with this. Namely, that I deserve eternal damnation.

I agree that every willing decision to sin means I deserve an equal punishment, but I was born without the intent to sin or the capability to knowingly violate any Commandments or rules. For that matter, why should I be damned eternally if I strive to help others all my life?

Secondly, you continuously view Jesus as a mere human with only 32 years to sacrifice for us. Assuming (and this is a long stretch) you took a religious class, you would remember Jesus was God incarnate, refuting your above statements questioning the validity of Jesus being sinless. It also refutes your questioning of how Jesus could account for the world's sins (because that was really ridiculous)- he could by sacrificing his life for all of us, present and future, as God incarnate. He was a player in his own game and He makes his own rules. Whether this applies to people before his time I do not know but I'd like to think it does.

Another point you made was about not deserving the reward of eternal salvation because it is our ultimate nature to be good, having been modeled after God. Again, I disagree. Models are merely models, no matter how accurate or how inaccurate, never truly being either. We DO deserve a reward for a life that is inherently good and agreeing with the Commandments and laws because we have devoted ourselves to following them when we had the option not to and to spoil ourselves.

Why did he wait so long? Who can say. Perhaps it was a test. Scientists love to test. So perhaps God was testing us too. Or maybe He was waiting for the opportune moment to give us Jesus, so history would go the way it did. Who can say? It certainly didn't turn out horribly.

Edit:

Regarding your slew of 'qualification' claims, we can say without trouble that judgement of sins is unquestionably God's trade because they are infractions we engage in, and we, being his creations, are subject to his rules and judgement. This also applies to our rewards.

[Questatement]

My understanding is that Jesus's justification did not sit well with the Jews or the Rabbis.

Yes, which is why Jesus eventually ended up on a Roman cross. However, my question pertained to who was correct in the debate over the spirit/application of the law that occurred on the scene.

[truthreality]

I have numerous issues with this. Namely, that I deserve eternal damnation.

Of course you do.

I agree that every willing decision to sin means I deserve an equal punishment, but I was born without the intent to sin or the capability to knowingly violate any Commandments or rules. For that matter, why should I be damned eternally if I strive to help others all my life?

It was your God's own creation Lucifer that introduced sin and deceived man.

Secondly, you continuously view Jesus as a mere human with only 32 years to sacrifice for us. Assuming (and this is a long stretch) you took a religious class, you would remember Jesus was God incarnate, refuting your above statements questioning the validity of Jesus being sinless. It also refutes your questioning of how Jesus could account for the world's sins (because that was really ridiculous)- he could by sacrificing his life for all of us, present and future, as God incarnate. He was a player in his own game and He makes his own rules. Whether this applies to people before his time I do not know but I'd like to think it does.

I have taken a religious class. One of my professors was a Masters in the New Testament. He taught a class specifically on the New Testament. His view was not that Jesus was the one and only savior and that those who do not believe perish. Why? He is reading the same book as you.

Jesus is not God incarnate.

By his own admission he is not omnscient or omnipotent.

John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I."

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

If Jesus is God and a player in his own game why does Yaweh not mention him in the Old Testament? Why is the Trinity only mentioned in the New Testament?

Is my questioning about wheter or not Jesus accounts for the world's sins ridiculous because it's false or ridiculous because it differs from how you interpret the Bible?

Another point you made was about not deserving the reward of eternal salvation because it is our ultimate nature to be good, having been modeled after God. Again, I disagree. Models are merely models, no matter how accurate or how inaccurate, never truly being either. We DO deserve a reward for a life that is inherently good and agreeing with the Commandments and laws because we have devoted ourselves to following them when we had the option not to and to spoil ourselves.

The commandments and law were not revealed at the beggining of time. They were revealed to Moses later on.

Why did he wait so long? Who can say. Perhaps it was a test. Scientists love to test. So perhaps God was testing us too. Or maybe He was waiting for the opportune moment to give us Jesus, so history would go the way it did. Who can say? It certainly didn't turn out horribly.

Waiting for the opportune time to give Jesus? Jesus incarnating on earth is not a good thing. The purpose of Jesus incarnating on earth was because of a sinful world. Do you really think that's an opportune time?

Regarding your slew of 'qualification' claims, we can say without trouble that judgement of sins is unquestionably God's trade because they are infractions we engage in, and we, being his creations, are subject to his rules and judgement. This also applies to our rewards.

Of course judgement is up to God. Why do you think you have a firm grasp on his judgement? What makes you believe your destiny is more solidified than a non believer?

[truthreality]

Yes, which is why Jesus eventually ended up on a Roman cross. However, my question pertained to who was correct in the debate over the spirit/application of the law that occurred on the scene.

There wouldn't be multiple religions if that answer so simple would there?

Christians will give authority to Jesus.

Jews will give authority to the law and the Rabbis.

[Questatement]

There wouldn't be multiple religions if that answer so simple would there?

Christians will give authority to Jesus.

Jews will give authority to the law and the Rabbis.

I'm simply talking about using logic to see if the intent of a given law applies. Something thousands of people do every day for a living, religious or not.