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Thread: The Bible should be brought back into the classroom.

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    Igneous Magma
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    The Bible should be brought back into the classroom.

    This is a weird argument for an atheist to propose.

    I think that we should utilize the Bible more, for the purposes of public education. Why bother to teach our kids Shakespeare, and not teach them the Bible? These are both important works of western literature. No one can claim to be truly literate if they do not have some familiarity with the Bible.

    I think that the atheists have been winning the "culture war." The Bible has successfully been removed from America's schools, and it shows. There is now a higher level of biblical illiteracy than there ever has been before. Many so called Christians are almost completely ignorant of the Bible.

    But, I believe we have lost something; something important for our democracy. To my mind, the main competent of a functioning democracy is argument. Government policy is important. We're talking about policies of taxation, justice, war and peace. These issues should be settled by a public and open argument, in which every view point is considered.

    I believe that religious controversy can be a whetstone upon which to sharpen the knife of democracy. If you really want to learn to argue, study religion. In a religious controversy, there is hardly any evidence you can cite, you can't really prove whether there is a god or not, how he wants you to worship him, or anything at all. Look at the old conflict between competing Christian cults in the ancient Roman empire: those who believed in homoiousios, versus the advocates of homoousios. They were literally killing each other over the difference of one letter! In religion, you are literally arguing over nothing.

    The citizens of a democratic republic must be able to argue, and to understand arguments, on substantial and difficult subjects. Perhaps it would be helpful to first master the art of arguing over nothing at all. Bible studies in public schools could be helpful to this end.


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    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
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    Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

    No. I might vaguely consider a comparative religions class as an elective, wherein all major works are discussed as equals (including atheist philosophy), but personally I think both Shakespeare and the Bible are useless, even detrimental to a young person's education.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

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    Volcanic Erupter BlackSheep's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    This is a weird argument for an atheist to propose.
    I am unconvinced you are a atheist.

    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    I think that we should utilize the Bible more, for the purposes of public education. Why bother to teach our kids Shakespeare, and not teach them the Bible? These are both important works of western literature. No one can claim to be truly literate if they do not have some familiarity with the Bible.
    Well one is not a work of literature and it is held very sacred by the majority of the population and dealing wit it as literature would upset many people and I think people of other faiths (and atheists) would see it as a way of introducing Christianity into the school.

    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    I think that the atheists have been winning the "culture war." The Bible has successfully been removed from America's schools, and it shows. There is now a higher level of biblical illiteracy than there ever has been before. Many so called Christians are almost completely ignorant of the Bible.
    I am unsure what you mean by a culture war, but if it is what I think the Christians are still miles ahead. As far as biblical literacy goes I have never found most Christians to know it well.

    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    But, I believe we have lost something; something important for our democracy. To my mind, the main competent of a functioning democracy is argument. Government policy is important. We're talking about policies of taxation, justice, war and peace. These issues should be settled by a public and open argument, in which every view point is considered.

    I believe that religious controversy can be a whetstone upon which to sharpen the knife of democracy. If you really want to learn to argue, study religion. In a religious controversy, there is hardly any evidence you can cite, you can't really prove whether there is a god or not, how he wants you to worship him, or anything at all. Look at the old conflict between competing Christian cults in the ancient Roman empire: those who believed in homoiousios, versus the advocates of homoousios. They were literally killing each other over the difference of one letter! In religion, you are literally arguing over nothing.
    Simply because the spelling of two words are similar means nothing. Friend and fiend also differ by one letter only. Debate can be over many things and fostering debate over topics with as you say "there is hardly any evidence you can cite, you can't really prove whether there is a god or not" is counter productive. We should foster debates where there is substance.

    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    The citizens of a democratic republic must be able to argue, and to understand arguments, on substantial and difficult subjects. Perhaps it would be helpful to first master the art of arguing over nothing at all. Bible studies in public schools could be helpful to this end.
    No.

    The storys been told a million times,
    but it's different when it's your life

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    Volcanic Erupter SoylentGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    If you really want to learn to argue, study religion. In a religious controversy, there is hardly any evidence you can cite, you can't really prove whether there is a god or not, how he wants you to worship him, or anything at all..
    So what your saying is, theists really don't have the moral compass they claim over so much?

    I think you might be misrepresenting religion.


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    Emperor The Black Ghost's Avatar
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    If the Bible is ever brought into classrooms again, it must be in the clear context of "myth"---like studying Greek mythology. Granted, Greek mythology isnt really that great and its purpose in education is really meaningless outside of learning about ancient religions and Greek supersitition.

    If evil is my enemy, then I will fight against it. If evil is on my side, then evil is my friend. If it is simply the way of all human nature, are we then all evil?

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    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    I believe that religious controversy can be a whetstone upon which to sharpen the knife of democracy. If you really want to learn to argue, study religion. In a religious controversy, there is hardly any evidence you can cite, you can't really prove whether there is a god or not, how he wants you to worship him, or anything at all. Look at the old conflict between competing Christian cults in the ancient Roman empire: those who believed in homoiousios, versus the advocates of homoousios. They were literally killing each other over the difference of one letter! In religion, you are literally arguing over nothing.
    Trivializing the inevitable conflicts will not prevent the blood shed over which Bible is to be used in your classroom. Religious arguments are NOT centered on things spiritual but over which cult will rule over the other.

    You referred to killings over a single letter. Well, why wouldn't disputes in your class turn as violent as those you've used as a reference? Like in the Bible Riots in Philadelphia. PhilaPlace - The Kensington Riots of 1844




    The citizens of a democratic republic must be able to argue, and to understand arguments, on substantial and difficult subjects. Perhaps it would be helpful to first master the art of arguing over nothing at all. Bible studies in public schools could be helpful to this end.
    Boy did you pick the wrong nothing to argue about in schools.

    Even now the battle is being waged in state school boards over the wording of texts between the secular and the representatives of nothing. Here's one conflict in the making in Alabama. Representatives of nothing want to teach nothing to children away from the public schools but want the schools to give credit to those who have so studied and, presumably, passed the course by demonstrating their mastership of nothing. Antievolution legislation in Alabama | NCSE
    Nothing has as much right to be taught as evolution. Isn't that a hoot?

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

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    Amused Maryjane's Avatar
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    I think that we should utilize the Bible more, for the purposes of public education.
    I would hope that students in Virginia schools especially, read the advice Thomas Jefferson's gave to his nephew Peter Carr first before they engage in that activity and they are of a mature mind. My youngest son has chosen to take a comparative religion class next year as his sophomore elective. He rather enjoyed learning about the different religions this year in his social studies class. My oldest took the CR course in college and hated it. He feels he learned more about religion in his military history class in high school. NEVER would I want the bible used anywhere near a science class.




    3. Moral Philosophy. I think it lost time to attend lectures on this branch. He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science. For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with a sense of right and wrong, merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality, and not the to kalon [beautiful], truth, &c., as fanciful writers have imagined. The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted, indeed, in some degree, to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call common sense. State a moral case to a ploughman and a professor. The former will decide it as well, & often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules. In this branch, therefore, read good books, because they will encourage, as well as direct your feelings. The writings of Sterne, particularly, form the best course of morality that ever was written. Besides these, read the books mentioned in the enclosed paper; and, above all things, lose no occasion of exercising your dispositions to be grateful, to be generous, to be charitable, to be humane, to be true, just, firm, orderly, courageous, &c. Consider every act of this kind, as an exercise which will strengthen your moral faculties & increase your worth.




    4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty & singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy & Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, &c. But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, & that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities? You will next read the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, & the second by exile, or death in fureā. See this law in the Digest Lib. 48. tit. 19. §. 28. 3. & Lipsius Lib 2. de cruce. cap. 2. These questions are examined in the books I have mentioned under the head of religion, & several others. They will assist you in your inquiries, but keep your reason firmly on the watch in reading them all.

    Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, & that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision. I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics. Most of these are lost. There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get & send you.


    Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, 1787


    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/



    If I'm the only witness to your madness offer me some words to balance out what I see and what I hear.
    10,000 Maniacs

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    Volcanic Erupter Cephus's Avatar
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    While I think teaching the Bible is a waste of precious educational time, I will say that the best thing it would do is result in many, many fewer Christians. The worst enemy of religion is actually studying the basis for said religion. It becomes obvious how asinine it really is.


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    Volcanic Erupter BlackSheep's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Cephus View Post
    While I think teaching the Bible is a waste of precious educational time, I will say that the best thing it would do is result in many, many fewer Christians. The worst enemy of religion is actually studying the basis for said religion. It becomes obvious how asinine it really is.
    First it would never fly as Christians would take it as an attack on them specifically, which arguably it would be.
    I have debated with enough people over religion to know it is never easy to convince people that their families and people they trust are wrong about their god.

    The storys been told a million times,
    but it's different when it's your life

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    dead for tax reasons Peter's Avatar
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    All the various god authored books should be studied, in their totality, in school. Less ignorance about the magical books would mean fewer theists. It's extremely rare that I meet a christian in my daily life who knows as much as I do about their special book and I'm far from a biblical scholar.

    Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith. - Christopher Hitchens

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    Igneous Magma
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    Something should be done about our "system" of public education. It is an abysmal failure. In an age of mass literacy, when knowledge is widely diffused, not just through the medium of print, but through the internet as well, at the same time we paradoxically seem to be more stupid than ever before.

    This problem of mass stupidity cannot be solved through educational reforms. However, we need to admit that that there is something fundamentally wrong with public education; something inherent and central to the entire program. But, where is the critical defect?

    I think that the original defect can be traced back to the ideological father of public education himself: Horace Mann.

    It would be unfair to blame Mann alone for the removal of Christianity from the classroom. Mann was not against the combination of education and religion, as long as it was a certain type of religion. He was not opposed to using the Bible in school, in general. But there was one aspect of religion that specifically disgusted and horrified him: religious sectarianism.

    In fact, it wasn't so much the religious aspect that troubled him specifically, but sectarianism in general. Mann saw religious and political controversy as basically the same thing: insignificant sound and fury, useless noise, etc.. He thought that the developing mind of a young, impressionable citizen should be protected from the cacophony. He envisioned public education as providing a protective cocoon to shield our future citizens from these distorting influences.

    No matter how well intentioned this ideology, it must be admitted that there are grave consequences. Our system cannot function without meaningful dissent. There must be vigorous argument, especially on the important points. However, we seem to have lost the ability to maintain a cogent public discourse. I don't blame public education solely, but it has had an impact.

    By the way, what about ADHD? According to the principles of Horace Mann, we advance a public curriculum that is bland and innocuous, and then when the students get bored and bounce around, we blame the students, and shove pills down their throats.

    The Bible might help to straighten out these bored and unruly students. Let's put the Bible back in school.


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    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    Something should be done about our "system" of public education.
    It is an abysmal failure.
    Now now, I wouldn't say the whole thing is an "abysmal failure." I would try to narrow it down to its worst points.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

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