God doesn't want me!

[ItsDarts]

[QUOTE=highfidelity;843822]

Good idea. Let's keep a totally open mind about it. Not rule out any possibilities before they have been thoroughly investigated.

Like the possibility that other gods may exist?

He's omniscient, so logically that must be possible. But just because he can do it, doesn't mean he will do it. God is conscious and has free will. He knows what you're thinking too, if he listens. Knows everything, that's omniscient.

There's a slight misconception here. Either he's omniscient and he "knows" everything, or he doesn't know everything unless he listens? Which is it?

Just another guy who want's to know the mind of God. Well, why do you want to know? That'd be my first question.

This would be your first question "if you were god"? Or are you asking as your self? If you were God, then you'd already know why he wants to know, duh!

He must choose not to. He knows he exists, you're the one with the problem.

And about 5 billion other people have a problem too. The majority of the world does not believe in the Abrahamic god. He's had about 6000 years to convince the entire world and he's failing miserably.

God is self sufficient and has no need of anything external. He is absolute, perfect and complete. He loves everyone without exception and without regard to anything they do, anything they say etc.

Then he doesn't "want" us or "need" us in heaven or hell. I think you are completely wrong here if we are to take your bible to heart.

He must choose not to interfere with what you choose to do with your life. Maybe he thinks you're capable of making your own decisions. Just like you are conscious, have a personality, have free will - so does god.

Why do you believe? Did he show you a sign? Did he speak to you in some way? What reasons do you have to believe THIS god exists over any of the thousands of gods throughout history?

[Madshadows]

[QUOTE=highfidelity;843822]

God is conscious and has free will.

He must choose not to.

He is absolute, perfect and complete.

He must choose not to interfere

You do realise that these statements are contradictory and mutually exclusive?

[Madshadows]

We've all heard that the evidence of the Christian Gods existence is all around us waiting to be "seen." Lots of people like me look around and see nothing but natural processes and random chance. Billions more look around and see evidence of Allah or Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. All these billions are doomed to eternal death, or eternal hellfire depending on who you ask.

Let's assume for a moment that the Christian God really does exist. He knows (omniscient) exactly what it would take to convince me and all the other billions that He exists and He's surely capable of convincing me (omnipotent) and everyone else but He doesn't. Why not? Why does the Christian God withhold eternal salvation from billions of people around the world by not making the effort to convince each and every one of His existence and message?

I'm sure you've all heard the typical Christian reasoning that if He revealed Himself unambiguously to the entire world we would all become "robots" and our free will would be subverted. They must be thinking it would take God surfing down from heaven on a wave of light accompanied by a 1000 piece orchestra of angels. I'm thinking it wouldn't take anything so overt. How many Christians that you know of were only convinced when they talked to a burning bush for instance. One?

Most Christians are convinced by nothing more than a chance occurance or a spectacular scene while on a hike in the woods. In other words, God should easily be able to convince everyone on Earth of His existence, each in their own private way. No angelic orchestra or lightboard required. So why doesn't He?

The most obvious answer is that He doesn't exist but let's approach this as if He does exist and is at this moment watching me write this post. What is He thinking, why isn't He convincing me right now that He exists? Doesn't He love me enough? Doesn't He want me?

Perhaps you are not lovable enough! I actually think it is a reasonable enough argument that if you accept the existence of a particular god of a particular religion then you should be expected by that god to obey his rules, whatever they are, or accept the consequences of disobedience, again whatever they are. I do not see how it could work any other way.

The idea that he must manifest himself might seem obvious to you or me but clearly does not matter to a huge amount of people. Fine for them, I guess, but then his word can only be spread by its message being accepted (or forced) and the religion that spreads it being deemed to be the truth. This would certainly seem to be an erratic and inefficient way for human souls to find salvation evenplayingfield wise. Indeed, if gods were missing from the message it might be more likely that peace, love and understanding could cross boundaries that religion is unable or unwilling to (plus, having to admit that all the bad shit in holy books comes from man's prejudices and was not the binding word of a god might help).

Because He doesn't want you does not mean He is not there. And if you wanted Him I am sure you would find Him and that would not mean He was there either. And, of course, god might not be religious at all, the fact that the most popular god around seems to me to be totally made up (given how many interpretations of the same thing there actually are) does not negate the idea of a god, just that one.

I think that before we go accepting the hypothetical existence of the Christian God we should try the hypothetical existence of any god and that the Christians (or any other) should then put a case (that does not include torture or conquest) why their god is and the other gods are not. Though I have been rambling on a bit and probably should ask that in another thread, sorry.

[NoJingoLingo]

Let's assume for a moment that the Christian God really does exist. He knows (omniscient) exactly what it would take to convince me and all the other billions that He exists and He's surely capable of convincing me (omnipotent) and everyone else but He doesn't. Why not? Why does the Christian God withhold eternal salvation from billions of people around the world by not making the effort to convince each and every one of His existence and message?

I'm sure you've all heard the typical Christian reasoning that if He revealed Himself unambiguously to the entire world we would all become "robots" and our free will would be subverted.

This makes no sense to me, god can't reveal himself directly because we would lose our free will or become robots but we wouldn't become robots or lose our free will if we were believed in him through some other mechanism?

[ItsDarts]

I've seen the argument (its an invalid argument made by some apologists) stated something to this effect....

"God can't reveal himself to us clearly," this argument goes, "because he wants us to have free will. We have to be free to believe in him or not. If he revealed his presence to us, we'd be forced to believe in him -- and our free will is a precious gift. It's what makes us God's unique creation."

Of course this a bad argument because knowing God exists is not the same as believing in him. If I could see god, I would still have the choice to believe in him. I could choose not to believe in him even with the knowledge that he exists. He's also (allegedly) revealed himself to other humans as well, was he trying to remove their free will? Did he remove their free will? No. If I saw the Abrahamic God, I'd probably have to tell him he's not worthy of our worship based on the stories in the Bible/Koran/Torah and then thank him for my free will to tell him that.

[ozzie666]

He must choose not to interfere with what you choose to do with your life.

so this life that gets devoted to him, cant be tampered with, by him, at all? seems like another oddly convenient prerequisite of Gods. that sounds oddly man made.

No. If I saw the Abrahamic God, I'd probably have to tell him he's not worthy of our worship based on the stories in the Bible/Koran/Torah and then thank him for my free will to tell him that.

haha spot on if i saw God i'd laugh. you really buggered this one up buddy!

[highfidelity]

[QUOTE]

Why then the presumption of the Christian god? Let's approach this from the presumption that any of the gods humans worship might exist. We would need to quit saying "He" since some gods are women and some are non-human in form. Nor should we presume that "God is self sufficient and has no need of anything external. He is absolute, perfect and complete. He loves everyone without exception and without regard to anything they do, anything they say etc." since not all gods are like this.

It's not a presumption of the Christian god. I would use he/she but its cumbersome. It's just a deficiency of the english language that we don't have a unisexual word that we can use.

To presume these other things about god are necessary. God is absolute - this means perfect and complete. If he is not, then what makes him god?

Isn't that what the Bible is supposed to reveal to Christians, the Qur'an to Muslims and the Gita/Veda to Hindus? Doesn't it presume to know the mind of god in saying, "He must choose not to. He knows he exists...He must choose not to interfere..."?

It doesn't presume to know the mind of god, its just a logical conclusion. If we start with the assumption that god exists, and he is omniscient and omnipotent, then given the reality that he is undetectable to some people, it must logically be the case that ...
- he chooses not to reveal himself for whatever reason, or ....
- we lack the ability to detect him and the deficiency is with us.

Any other logical possibilities?

Then why did he give humans the laws of the Old Testament, violations of which were punishable by death, and why does he require humans to worship him alone (Exodus 20:3)? Why does god demand love and obedience? Why did god bother to create humans?

I don't agree that the bible is the word of god and has absolute authority. Why do you think he requires humans to worship him alone when our experience tells us that this isn't true? People worship whatever they like, if god is omnipotent, then he mustn't have a problem with it or he would stop it.

Again if he is omnipotent, then he doesn't demand anything because we can do whatever we like within the boundaries of the laws of nature. So he obviously doesn't demand obedience, and how is it possible to demand love?

[highfidelity]

[QUOTE=ItsDarts;843828] Like the possibility that other gods may exist?

Sure, why not. What did you have in mind?

There's a slight misconception here. Either he's omniscient and he "knows" everything, or he doesn't know everything unless he listens? Which is it?

So you think omniscient means he doesn't have the capacity to ignore things? I also think he's omnipotent - can do anything.

This would be your first question "if you were god"? Or are you asking as your self? If you were God, then you'd already know why he wants to know, duh!

So if god knows peter's motivation already, maybe that's the reason god is being so quiet and not communicating with peter. I'm just a duh and probably mistaken, but it seems to me that peter is insincere in his desire to know god, and has in fact already made up his mind that god doesn't exist. I would even say that his motivation is to mock the idea of god and anyone who believes in him. So why the surprise that god isn't interested?

And about 5 billion other people have a problem too. The majority of the world does not believe in the Abrahamic god. He's had about 6000 years to convince the entire world and he's failing miserably.

Everyone in this world has a serious problem. Everyone is under a death sentence. They can't avoid suffering, disease, old age and death. What's your solution to these problems?

Then he doesn't "want" us or "need" us in heaven or hell. I think you are completely wrong here if we are to take your bible to heart.

He needs nothing. But although he may not need you, you can't say he doesn't want you. My bible? You assume incorrectly.

Why do you believe? Did he show you a sign? Did he speak to you in some way? What reasons do you have to believe THIS god exists over any of the thousands of gods throughout history?

I have many reasons for believing. I would try and answer those questions, but its impossible to communicate. I can only say that my studies of the subject matter and more importantly - my practice of the principles in my life has convinced me that this is a question worth serious consideration and not some imaginary wishful thinking. I can't show you any objective proof and convince you, but I can't deny it myself.

[highfidelity]

[QUOTE=Madshadows;843831]

You do realise that these statements are contradictory and mutually exclusive?

How so?

[highfidelity]

[QUOTE]

so this life that gets devoted to him, cant be tampered with, by him, at all? seems like another oddly convenient prerequisite of Gods. that sounds oddly man made.

If he's omnipotent he can do anything. That's the definition of omnipotent. God is god, he can do whatever he damn well likes. He doesn't have to ask your permission and he doesn't have to answer to you at all. Got a problem with that?

[Jack]

I would use he/she but its cumbersome. It's just a deficiency of the english language that we don't have a unisexual word that we can use.

How about the non-anthropomorphic "it"?

Any other logical possibilities?

Why would a god defined as "omnipotent" be restrained by logic? Any possibility, no matter how illogical or impossible to imagine, should be allowed.

I don't agree that the bible is the word of god and has absolute authority.

Then we agree on that point.

Why do you think he requires humans to worship him alone when our experience tells us that this isn't true?

How does what humans do negate its desire to be worshiped?

[Madshadows]

God is conscious and has free will.

He must choose not to.

He is absolute, perfect and complete.

He must choose not to interfere

You do realise that these statements are contradictory and mutually exclusive?

How so?

Because "must" negates concious free will and absolute. Who or what can command a free and absolute god to "must" anything?