Questions to Followers of Organized Religion.

[CarlPilkington]

Also, in regards to religion, not any possible "god", just religion itself;
The family someone is born into is the most accurate predictor of that person's religion. Is it that crazy to think you weren't born into the right family?

Is it really that crazy that your religion is just like the thousands of other belief systems that had millions of devoted believers, but thousands of years later were just myths?

Do you really think it's that crazy that man kind would be more willing to accept a myth in a time when science didn't even exist?

Do you really think it's just insanely implausible that most people are just going to blindly believe what their parents told them, and their parent's parents told them?

Is it really that implausible that there WASN'T someone who performed all sorts of magic, when you yourself admit to having never seen someone do such a thing?

Do you think the idea that we live in a universe that can be explained logically (Although it is far from being explain so far.) is just bat-shit insane?

OK, my last question is, despite all of this, what sole reason would you give someone like me to justify having faith in something that's just the latest of thousands of failed experiments?

[beartheweak]

I'm only speaking on behalf of the Christian belief. From my perspective, I don't think it sounds crazy, but you obviously have a different perspective. First of all, you try to say these things are crazy with the intention to say: just because something sounds crazy means it's false. At one point, it was crazy to believe the earth is round (we really need to come up with a terminology for this in this forum because this example is used quite a lot, haha).

"Is it really that implausible that there WASN'T someone who performed all sorts of magic, when you yourself admit to having never seen someone do such a thing?"
Oh, come on... there are lots of things that happened in the past that humans then saw, that we now haven't. Also just to address something really quickly, I can boldly say it's obvious that prosperity preachers, faith-healers/prophets, and "slain in the spirit" type pastors are phonies trying to make a quick buck (or they genuinely believe something that's false). The bible never says that the apostolic gifts will continue, rather it says they will pass-over (ask if citation is needed if your'e interested because I have to look it up ). Stop trying to be over dramatic here. Some of these things did happen 2000 years ago, and there were people around to witness it. How do you think any history is determined?... from the eye-witness accounts of people that were there. That's all the bible is. I actually believe that some of the things in the "Karan" probably happened (whether if 5% or 100% is accurate, I'm not sure), however, I have other reason to believe that it wasn't inspired by God (rather, it was inspired by the opposite).

"Do you think the idea that we live in a universe that can be explained logically (Although it is far from being explain so far.) is just bat-shit insane?"
It can't be explained logically. It feels like I've argued this so many times, I've lost interest in proving it again. So refer to my other posts, or just look up why it's impossible for there to be an infinite universe and why it's impossible for Everything to come from literally Nothing. And I know this particular response is an easy one to bash since I didn't lay out the evidence, but I really am getting tired of redundancy; and I'm short on time.

"OK, my last question is, despite all of this, what sole reason would you give someone like me to justify having faith in something that's just the latest of thousands of failed experiments?[/QUOTE]"
I will be optimistic and read this as: you taking a genuine try at understanding the possibility of a God. One reason is that you simply exist. What was it that when all of your brain's functions came together that it created you; a self-aware person that isn't looking through the eyes of anyone else and that you right now have the ability to ponder your existence (philosophical, but also in a sense scientific). The second reason is that we obviously exist, and in a universe. So where did the universe come from?

[beartheweak]

Oh, another obvious reason why you should believe in a God is that evolution is extremely unlikely and impossibly complex to happen. Another reason is the origin of life (abiogenesis has been put in the myth book, eventhough there are still devout followers with hope that it could somehow be true).

[Angry Citizen]

Some of these things did happen 2000 years ago, and there were people around to witness it. How do you think any history is determined?

So you really believe that 300 Spartans + a thousand allies stood up to a million Persians, as Herodotus says?

One reason is that you simply exist. What was it that when all of your brain's functions came together that it created you; a self-aware person that isn't looking through the eyes of anyone else and that you right now have the ability to ponder your existence (philosophical, but also in a sense scientific).

Anthropic Principle fallacy. You look through your own eyes because if you didn't, you'd be looking through someone else's eyes and claiming them as your own. A little logic goes a long way.

The second reason is that we obviously exist, and in a universe. So where did the universe come from?

Let's do a contrapositive argument then, and assume God's existence from this fact and subsequent rhetorical question. Where then did God come from? Why is he exempt from the logical statement you have made prior to the rhetorical question? This is no more a proof of God than it is a proof of fried chicken.

Oh, another obvious reason why you should believe in a God is that evolution is extremely unlikely and impossibly complex to happen.

Debunked so many times that it's becoming rather sickening to see anyone continue to spout this shit.

[highfidelity]

[

QUOTE=CarlPilkington;839241]Also, in regards to religion, not any possible "god", just religion itself;
The family someone is born into is the most accurate predictor of that person's religion. Is it that crazy to think you weren't born into the right family?

Doctrine of karma says that your particular birth and family is just right for you.

Is it really that crazy that your religion is just like the thousands of other belief systems that had millions of devoted believers, but thousands of years later were just myths?

The existence of lots of counterfeit coins could suggest the real thing exists.

Do you really think it's that crazy that man kind would be more willing to accept a myth in a time when science didn't even exist?

Depends what you define as 'science'.

Do you really think it's just insanely implausible that most people are just going to blindly believe what their parents told them, and their parent's parents told them?

No. That's obvious from the evidence. Do you think its insanely implausible that most people will just blindly believe what science tells them is true?

Is it really that implausible that there WASN'T someone who performed all sorts of magic, when you yourself admit to having never seen someone do such a thing?

You mean David Copperfield? Penn and Teller? Harry Houdindi?

Do you think the idea that we live in a universe that can be explained logically (Although it is far from being explain so far.) is just bat-shit insane?

No. Why would you think so?

OK, my last question is, despite all of this, what sole reason would you give someone like me to justify having faith in something that's just the latest of thousands of failed experiments?

My experiment didn't fail. Recheck your methodology and assumptions.

[ItsDarts]

You mean David Copperfield? Penn and Teller? Harry Houdini?

I'm pretty sure he means things like coming back to life after 3 days of death, being swallowed by a whale and surviving after 3 days days in his belly, turning people into pillars of salt, talking snakes and virgin births. Or maybe he means milk drinking Ganesha statues?

Longevity of a religion is not evidence of your gods existence, its evidence of a well told story told to people who lack the ability to reason on a level that challenges the status quo.

[CarlPilkington]

Oh, another obvious reason why you should believe in a God is that evolution is extremely unlikely and impossibly complex to happen. Another reason is the origin of life (abiogenesis has been put in the myth book, eventhough there are still devout followers with hope that it could somehow be true).

OK, first, even if evolution was wrong, that doesn't lend any credibility to creationism. And evolution itself isn't impossibly complex, what's so complex is the result of 4 billion years of it. And next, who has put abiogenesis in "the myth book"? The last I checked it was still the leading scientific theory.

[CarlPilkington]

I'm only speaking on behalf of the Christian belief. From my perspective, I don't think it sounds crazy, but you obviously have a different perspective. First of all, you try to say these things are crazy with the intention to say: just because something sounds crazy means it's false. At one point, it was crazy to believe the earth is round (we really need to come up with a terminology for this in this forum because this example is used quite a lot, haha).

Your comparison to the Earth being round isn't relevant unless you mean to say that there is a reason you're in that exact family, assuming that reason is God. But that would be circular logic. "It's not improbable that I'm in a family that believe in this God because that God (That I would only believe in if I were born into this family.) would have put me in this family." Or do you deny that you would be a Muslim if born into a Muslim family?

Oh, come on... there are lots of things that happened in the past that humans then saw, that we now haven't.

Like what? Please, any example of something that we know exists, that we only say in the past, and now do not.

Also just to address something really quickly, I can boldly say it's obvious that prosperity preachers, faith-healers/prophets, and "slain in the spirit" type pastors are phonies trying to make a quick buck (or they genuinely believe something that's false). The bible never says that the apostolic gifts will continue, rather it says they will pass-over (ask if citation is needed if your'e interested because I have to look it up ).

So, if a man came along now and said he was the son of God, you wouldn't believe him. But a man, that you've never met and can not empirically even be sure that he ever existed, says the same thing and you believe him?

Stop trying to be over dramatic here. Some of these things did happen 2000 years ago, and there were people around to witness it. How do you think any history is determined?... from the eye-witness accounts of people that were there. That's all the bible is. I actually believe that some of the things in the "Karan" probably happened (whether if 5% or 100% is accurate, I'm not sure), however, I have other reason to believe that it wasn't inspired by God (rather, it was inspired by the opposite).

What eye witness accounts of Jesus are in the bible? You mean "The leaper" that say Jesus heal him? Or maybe "The pharisee" that debated with Jesus? Even the Pauline Epistles don't give any historical account for Jesus. Was Paul too busy spreading the word of Jesus to bother proving there was even a Jesus to begin with, knowing there would be someone who's going to say "There was no Jesus, prove it!"?

It can't be explained logically. It feels like I've argued this so many times, I've lost interest in proving it again. So refer to my other posts, or just look up why it's impossible for there to be an infinite universe and why it's impossible for Everything to come from literally Nothing. And I know this particular response is an easy one to bash since I didn't lay out the evidence, but I really am getting tired of redundancy; and I'm short on time.

I don't believe everything came from literally nothing, ironically, that would be you. You believe God created everything out of nothing. The big bang just says the universe, as it is today, began in a hot dense state. What came before that, if there was anything that can be called "before the big bang", fuck if I know. It is possible that the universe is cyclic or there is a multiverse, which themselves either are infinite or began some where.

I will be optimistic and read this as: you taking a genuine try at understanding the possibility of a God. One reason is that you simply exist. What was it that when all of your brain's functions came together that it created you; a self-aware person that isn't looking through the eyes of anyone else and that you right now have the ability to ponder your existence (philosophical, but also in a sense scientific). The second reason is that we obviously exist, and in a universe. So where did the universe come from?

I was genuinely looking for a convincing answer, yes, but why does this pass as a convincing answer? You're saying that "We don't know how we became self aware and where the universe came from, ergo it was god." What is it about ignorance that God is logically derived from?

[CarlPilkington]

Doctrine of karma says that your particular birth and family is just right for you.

Again, circular logic. Are you saying that you would still believe in the Doctrine of karma if you were in another family? If not, then you're using your faith to justify your faith.

The existence of lots of counterfeit coins could suggest the real thing exists.

So, false religions prove there is a real one? Maybe I'm just close minded, but I'm not buying that. If you have empirical proof for one religion, I could buy that, but saying "Golly gosh there's so many of them, at least one of them can't be wrong!" isn't getting me there.

Depends what you define as 'science'.

That thing that Galileo created. (Not accurate, I agree, but for this argument, that's what I mean.)

No. That's obvious from the evidence. Do you think its insanely implausible that most people will just blindly believe what science tells them is true?

Not at all, in fact most people are more likely to believe something if you make up some sort of "science-y sounding shit" for it. But science isn't dogmatic and is only based on the evidence. It is fallible, but also self-correcting.

You mean David Copperfield? Penn and Teller? Harry Houdindi?

Don't waste your time giving me retarded answers. If your particular faith doesn't believe in the supernatural, just say so.

No. Why would you think so?

Because of people like beartheweak, who think exactly that.

My experiment didn't fail. Recheck your methodology and assumptions.

You're avoiding the question with something that isn't even relevant to the first question. Thousands of failed experiments would be all the religions you don't believe in.

[beartheweak]

So you really believe that 300 Spartans + a thousand allies stood up to a million Persians, as Herodotus says?

What reason could the gospels have been written for other than to show God off as glorious? Why would someone write something to such an extent that benefitted them none? Same for the other religious books. This means there really is some form of deity, and the only likely reason that we even have this predicament is because we are each to make a choice of who the real deity is.

Anthropic Principle fallacy. You look through your own eyes because if you didn't, you'd be looking through someone else's eyes and claiming them as your own. A little logic goes a long way.

You still miss my point. Why is your consciousness even here at all? Why are any of "us" conscious? What is it about brain functions that cause any "person" to be poofed into existence with the ability to actually enjoy life's pleasures (I say this as a way to actually prove that we do indeed exist). There was a point in time when you, as a personality didn't exist, then you were born and you started growing and now you're you (that's what I mean by poofing from nothing). You're saying that literally your brain created you? How did something just made of organic tissue/fluids just so happen to create this complex "trick" that allows you to think of yourself as a self-aware being? The organic tissues/fluids are just a means that the soul communicates through. This is something fun to think about: but from what you're saying... you could take a snap-shot of your brain, and COMPLETELY replicate it on an "assembly line", place it in a body that you were able to build, then put a functioning off/on switch on that "duplicate" person, and flick that switch, that person comes to life as you. What you're saying is that right when you flick that switch to "ON", there is a real person in there looking out through those eyes just as you look out of your eyes. You know it's not you, so it's another "instance" of you. I do know one thing though- it would suck to be that guy, especially with a switch that can turn you off :).

Let's do a contrapositive argument then, and assume God's existence from this fact and subsequent rhetorical question. Where then did God come from? Why is he exempt from the logical statement you have made prior to the rhetorical question? This is no more a proof of God than it is a proof of fried chicken.

You misunderstand my argument I think. I'm not saying that it proves fried chicken :), just that God is far more likely because it's the only theory that makes sense than the others. I don't know you're standing on the origin of the universe, and quite frankly I don't think you do either (once again, because there are lots of gaps and contradictions), but I think that most people agree the universe had a beginning and does not recur. This is just my experience in debating with people because they eventually admit they agree that the universe had to have a beginning. If it had a beginning, the only thing that could cause everything to come from absolute nothingness is if something in a 4th, higher dimension, caused it in a lower, 3rd, dimension. We, in a 3rd dimension don't understand how things in a 4th dimension could work, not to mention what kind of super-smart being(s) dwells there. If we have intelligence in a 3rd dimension, what I'm trying to say is why can't there be a being in a 4th dimension with complete knowledge of at least everything in this dimension if not his own? Imagine a theoretical 1D universe. it would just be an infinitely small dot. Imagine a theoretical 2D universe, it gets far more complex than a 1D universe because the boundaries are no longer 0,0, but rather x,x in terms of moving. A theoretical being in a 1D world cannot travel from the point 0,0 to the point 4,4 because it just doesn't exist (it wouldn't make any sense at all to the 1D being to understand a 2D universe. Now, if you lived in a 2D universe with me and we were able to look at eachother (for argument sake), we would each see an infinitely thin straight line. How could you comprehend what a 3D universe looks like? It would be impossible for you to understand how anything would operate in it. Now you realize how difficult a 4th dimension would be to fathom. Of course I'm not trying to prove anything with this, just explaining how my theory could operate in reality. What I use as my deciding factor that God is real is the understanding that everything we have can't come from nothing. From God's perspective, it would be like you creating software that houses a 2D universe. You would be able to see the shape of a square, but someone in there could only see a line and not be able to fathom a square because it's impossible for a 2D aware object to understand the dimensions of a 3D aware object. Funny enough, some supposed "evolving" man a couple thousand years ago just so happened to understand this theory of dimensions and wrote this about God: Exodus 33:23 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live".
I think my theory is the only one that makes sense, and I think it even just so happens to line up perfectly with what the bible says. I've realized that the bible says a lot of things that are actually scientific, but said by the Bible to be spiritual because the people of that time wouldn't understand. The bible documents teleportation (from the middle of a sea to the shore), which we now know is possible.

Debunked so many times that it's becoming rather sickening to see anyone continue to spout this shit.

Until I am given a persuasive reason through evolution theory why there are:
1) flying creatures; the whole argument, "birds started as (just-so-happened) light-weighted creatures that happened to develop a mutated limb (which obviously would have created a disadvantage for these primitive birds as a wing-like limb, that probably had disabled movement, wouldn't have been able to offer any protection of itself from predators; thus causing birds as a race to not even be here today), is just absurd.
2) why the course of evolution only took +- a billion years (unintentional flame material) when mutations are rare in the wide range of species we watch, not to mention usually not inheritable-type mutations. Also, most mutations of the already rare number are worse for the creature. Also...also... there has never been a case where more genetic information was *added*. A cow can grow a 5th leg- but it already had legs. A dog can grow 4 ears, but it also already had ears. A cow and a dog cannot grow wings with their genetic information.
3) why there are living fossils in the fossil record (that are passed off as a different species). This isn't something someone needs to explain to me, rather it was me showing the evolutionists once again trying to fudge information to make it fit their beliefs.
4) there really are a billion to the billionth power worth of reasons why evolution is just a fairy tale. Complex brain functions? Ears that happened to make the right mutations that resulted in our "modern-day" hearing abilities (same for eyes, nervous systems, penis/vagina, and every single part in the human body b/c they are all have incredibly complex mechanisms/features).

I will continue counting this awesomely complex pile, called evolution, as garbage; and you can continue complaining that evolution makes perfect sense. Is anyone getting the idea of who's really spouting the crap here?

[beartheweak]

The existence of lots of counterfeit coins could suggest the real thing exists.

Haha, I don't think we believe in the same thing highfidelity, but your argument there is funny and true. And I respect you for at least putting your efforts into something after death my friend.

[beartheweak]

Longevity of a religion is not evidence of your gods existence, its evidence of a well told story told to people who lack the ability to reason on a level that challenges the status quo.

Enough with the "stupid Christian" argument-- I have more than fought down atheist's arguments many times in the past. I think you're backed into a corner and don't have anything left.