Jesus loves you, so what?

[Angry Citizen]

The passage in the Bible clearly relate to Sheol which isn't merely a Christian concept.

Yes, but who cares what the Bible says? It has zero authority.

As Sheol is underground it would be ridiculous to attempt to point to it on a map

Ohhh, it's underground. How far down? Can you give me rough GPS coordinates so I can start drilling? Didn't think so!

I am not a Christian

Well, you should make that clearer then. Stating the mythology as if it were fact leads to misunderstandings regarding your theological position.

Perhaps I am asking the wrong atheist but does any religious idea ever intrigue you?

Sure. From a story standpoint, some of them are pretty rich. I, however, find Christian mythology somewhat droll. I've got my own "religious" views that satisfy me, regarding the nature of consciousness and the physicality of our existence. I don't need some poor fellow talking to me about how some zombie dude from the 1st century "loves" me.

[Sean989]

Yes, but who cares what the Bible says? It has zero authority.



Ohhh, it's underground. How far down? Can you give me rough GPS coordinates so I can start drilling? Didn't think so!



Well, you should make that clearer then. Stating the mythology as if it were fact leads to misunderstandings regarding your theological position.



Sure. From a story standpoint, some of them are pretty rich. I, however, find Christian mythology somewhat droll. I've got my own "religious" views that satisfy me, regarding the nature of consciousness and the physicality of our existence. I don't need some poor fellow talking to me about how some zombie dude from the 1st century "loves" me.

You really should pay attention to what I write:

I did point out in my previous post that Sheol isn't a Christian concept and survived long before that. I would like to see how the Bible has zero authority though.

Again as I have stated I have never been to Sheol. So asking me for GPS coordinates is as ridiculous as asking me to point it out on a map.

I do believe that the place Sheol exists and I do believe Jesus died for three days, it seems to be a common occurrence throughout history and in esoteric religion (although mostly symbolic).

According to you I have to state my theological stand point before I can enter a debate...however I have failed to do so and we are still debating? Go figure.

So you view religious 'stories' from the most superficial standpoint and disregard everything else...sounds rather Christianity to me within it's modern sense.

Religion encompasses a lot more than our physical existence and consciousness as you well know. I have yet to meet a scientist who wears a pendant of Einstein in a test tube....

When did I suggest that Jesus 'loves' you or anyone for that matter?

[Jack]

When did I suggest that Jesus 'loves' you or anyone for that matter?

It's in the title of the thread thus is a part of the OP. I don't see that Angry Citizen said or implied that you made that comment,

[Sean989]

It's in the title of the thread thus is a part of the OP. I don't see that Angry Citizen said or implied that you made that comment,

Perception is a great thing, I perceive one thing, you another and Angry citizen something completely different. Does that make at least one of us wrong?

In any case what are your thoughts on the subject?

[kjw47]

I wonder what you think when you read the subject line. I wonder what you feel. Anger? Hope? Condescension? Curiosity?

So many smart people on these forums, it is intimidating to think of starting a new thread rather than just replying to everyone else. Maybe simple is better.

I believe:

- God created the world.
- The first humans fell into sin.
- God loves the world and sent his Son Jesus to pay the penalty of our sin.
- That Jesus is God and this was proved when he rose from the dead.
- That I have sinned and fallen short of the perfection of God.
- That if I believe in Jesus and what he has done on the cross, he will save me and take me to be where he lives forever.

So simple. So profound.

What do you believe about Jesus, and why do you believe it?

If you believe that Jesus loves you, what difference does this make in your life?

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Cheers, Steve

1) Yes God created the world
2)yes
3)yes, but one must repent in order for the sacrafice to count--acts 3:19-- Hebrews 10:26
4) not true- Jesus said the Father is the only true God- John 17:1-6
5)It takes much more than believing--Matt 7:21-23

[Dismay]

1) Yes God created the world
2)yes
3)yes, but one must repent in order for the sacrafice to count--acts 3:19-- Hebrews 10:26
4) not true- Jesus said the Father is the only true God- John 17:1-6
5)It takes much more than believing--Matt 7:21-23

4) He also said, I and my Father are one. John 10:30

[kjw47]

4) He also said, I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Yes he did-- they are one- in purpose--He also said-- the Father is greater than i

[Jack]

In any case what are your thoughts on the subject?

Which subject?

The "Jesus loves me" part? I could care less that some figment of fertile religiously inclined minds is said to love me. It's an unprovable contention that makes no difference to my life or to my philosophy. Nor would I care if someone claimed Jesus hates me. Jesus is a character in a mythology I no longer claim a share of. The last part of the topic title sums up my attitude accurately; "so what?"

The current debate? I have no horse in this race. It seems to have come down to a conventional Christian viewpoint versus a strict J.W. viewpoint. As an atheist I have nothing to contribute to a debate between factions of the same overall philosophy.

[minorwork]

First of all, ruksak just made my day with this one:
"Love does little more than tickle the feet of demons."

I sincerely think that is a great quote.

A very good quote. Power overcomes puny love in almost every case. Maybe we can force him to speak more on the quote if he won't be persuaded to do so.

[sky dancer]

Jesus isn't my guy.

[Dismay]

Yes he did-- they are one- in purpose--He also said-- the Father is greater than i

Wow seems like a bit of a contradiction now.

[Maninorange]

@Dismay:
Where's the contradiction in saying "I and the Father are one" ... meaning one in purpose.... and "The Father is greater than I" ... meaning "The Father" is God and I am not? If I were a Christian, I would NOT be a trinitarian.
Why not? Because if we want to count the Bible as evidence (as I would if I were a Christian), there is no good reason to believe that Jesus was God.


As for the Thread Topic:

I believe:

- God created the world.
- The first humans fell into sin.
- God loves the world and sent his Son Jesus to pay the penalty of our sin.
- That Jesus is God and this was proved when he rose from the dead.
- That I have sinned and fallen short of the perfection of God.
- That if I believe in Jesus and what he has done on the cross, he will save me and take me to be where he lives forever.

I believe:

- That the existence of the world (and the life on it) is perfectly explicable naturalistically. Therefore, there is no need to think that a god of any kind did it, let alone a specific one.

- That there is no "sin," unless you want to count the very broad rule that encompasses Utilitarianism (the moral theory to which I subscribe). Also, the phrase "first humans" is a completely arbitrary choice.

- There's no reason to think that there's a god at all, much less a reason to think there's one that loves us. Also, if this is an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that we're talking about... surely he could find the power to just forgive us instead of requiring payment... that he himself provides. What Christianity has given us is about as logical as saying:
"I've built a prison so that you can go there if you do bad things!
Furthermore, I put you in a position (not knowing right and wrong) in which you will inevitably do something bad, for which I will just declare that you and all of your offspring are "bad people" (sinful).
Now, I didn't exactly make up a way for you to make up for that... so I'm going to pay myself back for you by sacrificing my son to pay me all of your guys' debt instead.
The only thing you have to do is believe that he paid me back, even though he's not that great at keeping records, and I accidentally sent him to the middle of nowhere (the Middle East) instead of somewhere where people can write down what he says and does for him when he says and does it (like China).

- That even if we accept everything the Bible says about Jesus... including the resurrection... we still wouldn't have a good reason for thinking that he's God. Furthermore, we don't exactly have the most convincing evidence that he rose from the dead anyway.

- That I don't exactly do the best job of living up to Utilitarianism... but I'm trying pretty hard, and that's really what counts in the end.

- That there is nothing that you can be saved from by accepting a specific mythology, and also that living forever, no matter where it is, would be an absolute hell.


With that said, you and I are in almost universal disagreement on all things Jesus.