Prove Benevolent God

[Offeror]

Did you miss the magic trick analogy? I thought it proved this point rather well. Answer this. Would you consider it a choice of "free-will" if you picked a card at random from a fixed deck?

It is not a fixed deck, and the choices we have to pick from the cards are presented to us face up. Free will.

Never said he did. I keep saying it over and over and you keep missing my point. If he knows all the answers to every choice you make, how can you consider those choices "free"?

He knows what we will choose to do of our free will. If you can make sense of this statement.

Ok, analogy time I guess. Hypothetical. There you are, sitting in your basement constructing a nuclear bomb programed to detonate at the next major sporting event. You KNOW tens of thousands will die should you complete construction of this weapon. That's just plain evil malevolence, correct?

Yes. Agreed. I created the bomb with the conscious intent of doing what a bomb does best.

So, there's god, sitting in his throne, constructing the soul of the soon to be Adolph Hitler. God knows that should he complete the construction of Hitler's soul, millions will be slaughtered. What is the difference?? NONE.

God did create Adolf Hitler, but He also created all the good men that have been in the world. If God created Hitler, then why do you not consider, that He also created the Allied Forces that defeated Hitler. If God created Hitler, then why do you choose not to see, that despite all of his adventures, HE LOST, and He is a symbol of tyranny the world over? That is the difference.

The point I am trying to make all revolves around the previous knowlege of this omniscient being. He doesn't have to intervene if he knows EXACTLY what you are going to do with your life before he even creates you! Furthermore, it is just plain evil malevolence to "construct" a human soul which you know with 100% certainty will kill, rape, murder or wipe out millions.

Simply put you choose to see murder and rape, and fail to see the good in this world, which of course doesn't suit your argument.

God knows what we are going to choose with our free will? Are you kidding me? How can you call that free will? He already KNOWS...

Let's assume its a game of football, or soccer, and the referee sets the rules of the game and supervises the game. He knows beforehand that Team A is the better team, because it trains harder, works in tandem and discipline, while Team B is disjointed, and seldom train. If the referee officiates the game and KNOWS that Team A will win, then that is not fixing the game up. The analogy might not be perfect, but it does to a degree explain the thing.

It's no different that me knowing exactly what card you think you chose randomly from my deck!! While it may SEEM like a free choice, the reality is that the answer was already there.

God doesn't give us a fixed deck to choose from. Yes He does give us a deck to choose from I agree to that extent, but the choice is ours. Not only that, the deck has cards face up to us.

Omniscience and free will can not coexist.

Yes they can.

Yet. I believe there are promises made in the bible for just such a being to come into existance.

For every villain there is a Hero that God has created, so I won't worry too much. Although I don't exactly know which villain are you referring to.

By jove I think he's got it!! Hey I never said god was omnimalevolent. My point in all this was to show that an omniscient god can not be omnibenevolent.

Cheers!

Kind of goes back to the child bearing question I had. Sure, you did the killing, but god created you KNOWING before hand that you would do just that! In any court of law, at least, god would be considered an accessory to murder.

God is the court of law. And if He had caused us to do evil He would not be judging us for our deeds in the afterlife. Also mind you HIS KNOWING, doesn't mean that we know. Do you know what are you going to do a year from now? Surely not. You have to choose between good and evil, without knowing what God knows, then how come you can assume that God knew you would kill?

It just might be that God knows you will do good, if you only were to think positively about life.

[Chronos]

Evil doesn't always have to come from the 'god-given' freewill humans possess:

"In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering." - William L. Rowe




Did god lose his temper or was this a random act of nature? I hope for it to be the latter; I don't think I have the ability to imagine a god that not only allows evil and suffering to occur, but also causes them.

[Offeror]

Evil doesn't always have to come from the 'god-given' freewill humans possess:
Did god lose his temper or was this a random act of nature? I hope for it to be the latter; I don't think I have the ability to imagine a god that not only allows evil and suffering to occur, but also causes them.

There is at least no doubt in my mind that such a thing doesn't have to anything with God's temper.
t is something more similar to a shark eating smaller fish, something that happens constantly. Lions eat other animals too. It is something that is just the way God designed nature to work. BTW it is not only an animal but people too who have been struck by lightning, and it's all the same. You could perhaps label it as predestination (something that is beyond the control of a man thus he cannot choose whether it happens to him or not).

Actually the entire concept is two things go together man's free will, and God's predestination. When you are hit by a car, that is predestination for the person hit didn't choose to be hit by a car, in fact he might have tried to avoid it.
But when you see the purse of a person who left it behind in a bus, then it is up to you whether you choose to put it in your pocket, or you make an effort to run to him and return it.

[Chronos]

There is at least no doubt in my mind that such a thing doesn't have to anything with God's temper.
t is something more similar to a shark eating smaller fish, something that happens constantly. Lions eat other animals too. It is something that is just the way God designed nature to work.

Why has God designed nature to work in such a cruel manner? I understand that sharks eating fish, lions eating other animals and fawns trapped, horribly burned and left to suffer until their death are all part of how nature works and its randomness, but if you were an omnipotent God, would you design nature in this way?

If you saw this fawn trapped like this in agony, and you know that it's in excruciating pain, would it be OK to walk away from it and say, "God designed this to happen, therefore it's meant to happen"?

[Offeror]

Why has God designed nature to work in such a cruel manner? I understand that sharks eating fish, lions eating other animals and fawns trapped, horribly burned and left to suffer until their death are all part of how nature works and its randomness, but if you were an omnipotent God, would you design nature in this way?

Difficult to say because there are perhaps many factors to be taken into account. Maybe there are things that keep a balance in nature, and we know that often it is humans who have disturbed the balance of nature. The problem is that I am not omniscient like God, so I can't say if I would design nature like this, because I hardly know what's best, and what is precisely the reason for how things are.

If you saw this fawn trapped like this in agony, and you know that it's in excruciating pain, would it be OK to walk away from it and say, "God designed this to happen, therefore it's meant to happen"?

I would do my best to relieve it of its pain, because God wants me to do that. That is precisely why misery is, so that you and I could fix it.

[ItsDarts]

Difficult to say because there are perhaps many factors to be taken into account. Maybe there are things that keep a balance in nature, and we know that often it is humans who have disturbed the balance of nature. The problem is that I am not omniscient like God, so I can't say if I would design nature like this, because I hardly know what's best, and what is precisely the reason for how things are.


I would do my best to relieve it of its pain, because God wants me to do that. That is precisely why misery is, so that you and I could fix it.

You still haven't shown the benevolence in this design. If god "knows" his design will cause suffering then this can't be any form of benevolence. it appears you're merely rationalizing so you can hold onto your irrational belief that a god exists and that you think one day you will be rewarded for this irrational belief. I don't mean to insult you by saying your beliefs are irrational, I just feel all god type beliefs are irrational in light of the fact there is no empirical evidence for any god including yours and you willfully reject any and all other possible gods, so please don't be offended and remember at one point I did believe in the Christian version god until I realized my own beliefs were irrational for the same reasons I say yours are. Just because we don't really know how the universe started, it is no reason to assume there was any intelligent creator who has his hands in it. Nature itself is pretty darn intelligent, so to speak.

[freefallife]

It is not a fixed deck, and the choices we have to pick from the cards are presented to us face up. Free will.

You didn't answer my question. Would you consider it a "free" choice if I had prior knowledge of the exact card you were going to choose?

He knows what we will choose to do of our free will. If you can make sense of this statement.

So, did god know that I was going to deny his existence one day?

Yes. Agreed. I created the bomb with the conscious intent of doing what a bomb does best.

Right. So we agree that action is of pure evil malevolence, but....

God did create Adolf Hitler, but He also created all the good men that have been in the world. If God created Hitler, then why do you not consider, that He also created the Allied Forces that defeated Hitler. If God created Hitler, then why do you choose not to see, that despite all of his adventures, HE LOST, and He is a symbol of tyranny the world over? That is the difference.

So, let me get this straight. God created Hitler, then created all the "good guys" to beat him? I hope you're kidding. Because if that act isn't something you consider pure evil, you are simply not right in the head. God set up WWII is what you're saying. He created Hitler and the alies to defeat him and sat back and watched as some 50-70 million people died. That's just plain sick. You have just proven my point beyond any shadow of doubt. Thanks.

Simply put you choose to see murder and rape, and fail to see the good in this world, which of course doesn't suit your argument.

See above. Your god is responsible for WWII, by your very own argument. I never stated that there was no good in the world. My argument is simple. I'll state it again. An omniscient (all knowing) god cannot be omnibenevolent (all good). You proved it in your own argument. How can a god responsible for setting up WWII be considered ALL good?

Let's assume its a game of football, or soccer, and the referee sets the rules of the game and supervises the game. He knows beforehand that Team A is the better team, because it trains harder, works in tandem and discipline, while Team B is disjointed, and seldom train. If the referee officiates the game and KNOWS that Team A will win, then that is not fixing the game up. The analogy might not be perfect, but it does to a degree explain the thing.

Your analogy fails. The referee of the game is not omniscient. Your referee may think he knows, but cannot possibly be 100% certain. The underdog team could, as they sometimes are, have been victorious. God, however, knows all with 100% certainty who will win the game, even before any of the players are even created.

God doesn't give us a fixed deck to choose from. Yes He does give us a deck to choose from I agree to that extent, but the choice is ours. Not only that, the deck has cards face up to us.

Ok...the cards are face up. If god is omniscient, he knows which card we will choose before we choose it. In fact, he knew which card you would choose before he even created the universe. Do you agree with that? Does he know before you choose exactly what you are going to choose?

Yes they can.

By your very own argument, they cannot. Thanks for playing. Well, that is unless you can somehow rationlize an omnibenevolent god sparking off WWII and sitting back to watch as millions perished. I'm sure it will be entertaining.

For every villain there is a Hero that God has created, so I won't worry too much. Although I don't exactly know which villain are you referring to.

If god creates villains, he is not OMNI-benevolent!

God is the court of law. And if He had caused us to do evil He would not be judging us for our deeds in the afterlife.

And now you are beginning to see the inconsistancy of the god hypothesis.

Also mind you HIS KNOWING, doesn't mean that we know.

Right. We are not omniscient.

Do you know what are you going to do a year from now? Surely not.

Nope...because I am not omniscient.

You have to choose between good and evil, without knowing what God knows, then how come you can assume that God knew you would kill?

How can I assume god knew?? HE IS OMNISCIENT!!!!!! Do you not know what that means or something??

It just might be that God knows you will do good, if you only were to think positively about life.

If god knows I will do good, then I MUST do good. I have no real choice. If I did something contrary to what god knows I will do, he cannot be OMNISCIENT. He knows everything. He cannot be incorrect. All I can do, in a world supposedly governed by an omniscient god, is EXACTLY what he knows I will do. I cannot deviate from his perfect knowledge. Otherwise, it wouldn't be perfect knowledge would it? Again...it is just the illusion of free will.

[freefallife]

That is precisely why misery is, so that you and I could fix it.

If god creates misery, he is not omnibenevolent...regardless of the reason.

[Offeror]

You didn't answer my question. Would you consider it a "free" choice if I had prior knowledge of the exact card you were going to choose?

So, did god know that I was going to deny his existence one day?

The answer to the first question is, that knows what you will choose of your free will. You are equating his knowledge of your actions to him causing you to do those actions. And that is the only place where you haven't been able to understand what I'm trying to say. Simply put, God knows what you will choose because He is not bound by time. There is no past, present or future, thus knowing something beforehand is not a big deal.

The answer to the second question is, yes He knew you would deny his existence of your free will one day.

Just remember one thing, God knows what you're going to right in your response to this post, and here's your KNOWLEDGE that you are free to choose what you might write as a response. Just add the two, you KNOW for sure that you will write what you want without any intervention of any external force, thus the free will. And God's knowledge encompasses even what you choose to write.

WWII was also exactly the same thing. The war was fought by people who had free will, the choice to fight or not. That includes the villain and the heros. God didn't cause Hitler to kill the people. He didn't cause the good guys to beat Hitler too. God doesn't jump into the picture. He doesn't intervene except for very special circumstances, that do not involve ordinary men.

I know it's getting increasingly useless arguing on it. I appreciate your point, make no mistake about it. But you, I think, haven't really understood me exactly.

Now to prove how God is benevolent. lol
You cannot possibly come to the conclusion that God is benevolent if you don't go to the belief in the afterlife, the Heaven and Hell. If you minus these, then yes there is a lot of unaccounted for misery in the world, and the Creator cannot possibly be benevolent. But the Creator has promised to do justice to everyone in the afterlife. Hitler will burn in Hell for eternity for the crimes he committed.
And innocent people who are killed, the people who have suffered in this life, will fare well in the afterlife. And importantly a misery of 60-100 years in this world, wouldn't feel as much, as compared to the blessings of an eternal afterlife.

I guess if we are a bit patient in this life, and God rewards us with His eternal blessings, then God must be omnibenevolent. This world is not meant for fun anyways, God has put all of us to a test, and it is guaranteed that it is not going to be plain sailing.

I'll just turn the tables, and assume that God gives all of us a really cool life in this world, no troubles, no issues, just everything we wish for. But we die after a stipulated period, and because we were having great fun in this life, we all chose to deny His existence because it wasn't required to believe in Him. Life was just so good without the belief in a God. But God's rules of the game were the same.
So we all burn in Hell for eternity in the afterlife.

So which is better? Adversity, my good friend, is important for human beings. In the absence of it, we have a good time and we have fun, but we wouldn't care even more if there were a God or not.

[Chronos]

Difficult to say because there are perhaps many factors to be taken into account. Maybe there are things that keep a balance in nature, and we know that often it is humans who have disturbed the balance of nature.

Did humans create the vibrations in the ocean that would lead to a tsunami killing and devastating innocent people's lives?

[freefallife]

The answer to the first question is, that knows what you will choose of your free will.

If god knows what you will do without fail and with absolute perfection, then there is really no choice. It just seems that way to you. Everything you do is exactly what god knew and intended you to do from the moment of your creation. You cannot stray from that idea and still consider god omniscient. So, while you think that any spontaneous decision you make is completely random, it is actually what you were always supposed to do. There is no way for you to have ever done differently. The answer is already known, and thus cannot be considered a free choice.

You are equating his knowledge of your actions to him causing you to do those actions.

No. I am equating his knowlegde of my actions to him being RESPONSIBLE for them.

The answer to the second question is, yes He knew you would deny his existence of your free will one day.

Thank you. This proves my point again. So, in reality, all I am doing with my life is exactly what he knew I was going to do all along. From the very beginning of the universe, I have had no choice to be anything else other than what god knew I would be all along.

But it gets even better when you put an ounce of thought into it. He created me with the prior knowledge that he would one day be forced to punish me for all eternity...for doing exactly what he put me on this Earth to do. That is just sick, my friend, and it is anything but benevolent.

Just add the two, you KNOW for sure that you will write what you want without any intervention of any external force, thus the free will.

Can't you see what you are saying? If that is true, then all I am writing is exactly what I HAD to write...otherwise god would have been wrong (god forbid). Since, obviously, god cannot be wrong, I don't really have a choice of what I write. It's already been written. I can only write what he knows I'll write.

God didn't cause Hitler to kill the people.

No, but if he knew before he created Hitler exactly what Hitler would do with his life, the God is responsible. All he had to do was NOT create Hitler. Simple. But he did anyway and sat back with indifference as tens of millions fought and died...just as he knew they would all along.

God doesn't jump into the picture. He doesn't intervene except for very special circumstances, that do not involve ordinary men.

And I'm not saying that he intervenes. He doesn't have to. We are all doing EXACTLY what he knew we would do from the very beginning of the universe.

I know it's getting increasingly useless arguing on it. I appreciate your point, make no mistake about it. But you, I think, haven't really understood me exactly.

Well, I suppose you need to clarify yourself then. You agreed with me that if YOU did something like this (the bomb analogy) it would be evil. Why is it that you don't hold god to the same standard?

Now to prove how God is benevolent. lol

Good luck.

You cannot possibly come to the conclusion that God is benevolent if you don't go to the belief in the afterlife, the Heaven and Hell. If you minus these, then yes there is a lot of unaccounted for misery in the world, and the Creator cannot possibly be benevolent.

Can't you see how any amount of suffering is superfluous? All the people that are in heaven or will ever go to heaven are only those that god knew would end up there anyway. Every soul burning in hell and all the souls heading that way are only the one god knew were going to end up there anyway. If god is omniscient, he already knows the path we will take, right up until our eternal residence.

But the Creator has promised to do justice to everyone in the afterlife. Hitler will burn in Hell for eternity for the crimes he committed.
And innocent people who are killed, the people who have suffered in this life, will fare well in the afterlife. And importantly a misery of 60-100 years in this world, wouldn't feel as much, as compared to the blessings of an eternal afterlife.

Oh, ok. So that makes it all better.

God has put all of us to a test, and it is guaranteed that it is not going to be plain sailing.

Yep. And now what you really have to ask yourself is this. Why would a God that alredy knows exactly what you are going to do ever need to TEST you???

Adversity, my good friend, is important for human beings. In the absence of it, we have a good time and we have fun, but we wouldn't care even more if there were a God or not.

Funny. I feel the exact opposite. It was adversity that turned me away from belief to begin with. It would be easier to believe a god existed in a near perfect world.

[Offeror]

If god knows what you will do without fail and with absolute perfection, then there is really no choice. It just seems that way to you. Everything you do is exactly what god knew and intended you to do from the moment of your creation.

Yes God knew, but didn't intend me to do from the moment of my creation. He only made me with the freedom of choice, and He set the rules of the game such that He would let the ball roll as I make the choice, good or bad, God will not intervene. He will guide me to the right path, but He would still not intervene in the choices I make.

Yes God knows the evils I'll choose and the good I'll choose, but God didn't stop me because His rules of the game are that He has given us freewill and whatever we choose He shall not intervene. The fruits of our choices, we shall bear in the afterlife.

God's knowledge of a person whom He created, that He might ultimately kill another man, and that He knows but He doesn't stop Him, that's because the rule is that He won't intervene in what His creation would choose to do. He will send guidance to set people aright, but He shall not directly intervene.

For instance, let's assume a person lies, then what should God do to correct that man. If He stops him there is no free will, or if He simply doesn't create Him, then I guess there would be no human beings at all. You are using God's knowledge to blame Him, while I think we should take responsibility for our actions.

No. I am equating his knowlegde of my actions to him being RESPONSIBLE for them.

He creates a man, as I said, who would choose of his free will to do wrong, because if He doesn't create then perhaps the creation that is man, may be should not have been created at all.

But it gets even better when you put an ounce of thought into it. He created me with the prior knowledge that he would one day be forced to punish me for all eternity...for doing exactly what he put me on this Earth to do. That is just sick, my friend, and it is anything but benevolent.

Let me correct, He created you with the free will to choose, and you choose Hell for yourself, and He certainly didn't put you on Earth to do this, this is exactly where we differ. He put you on Earth to do good, so with the grace of God, come on, choose to be good instead of arguing for the sake of it. I am not as much interested in proving that God is benevolent, for God almighty doesn't need a certificate from you or myself. I am more interested in you choosing the right path for yourself.

I can only write what he knows I'll write.

You will write what you choose to write, He just happens to know what you'll choose of your freewill. It's only a different way of looking at the same thing. But may be you don't want a different way of seeing things.

Yep. And now what you really have to ask yourself is this. Why would a God that alredy knows exactly what you are going to do ever need to TEST you???

He is testing us, because no student who sits in an exam can be rewarded without actually taking the test. You cannot give a result without an actual examination. That would give the student an excuse that "Hey, I didn't even take the test yet and you're assuming that I'd fail." A very valid excuse.

Funny. I feel the exact opposite. It was adversity that turned me away from belief to begin with. It would be easier to believe a god existed in a near perfect world.

Well in case you think the opposite, would you share with me what thing has happened to you in life that is so terrible that makes you believe that there is no God? And if you had a really super life, would that have made you think differently about God?