Prove Benevolent God

[Offeror]

If God knew that you were going to commit murder before he even created you, then yes he did. He's the first cause, right? He knows EVERYTHING, correct? Doesn't stop him, does it? He still creates murderers, rapists and child molesters KNOWING what they would go on to do even before he created them.

God created you with the free will to either believe in him or deny him, and anyone can through any argument deny this free will, but it is a reality. He doesn't create murderers and rapists, he simply created man with the freedom of choice. And when He gave you that, then He doesn't intervene, for if He does then there is no free will. He let's men settle their affairs themselves.
He knows but He doesn't cause anyone to act immorally. That is a right you reserve, and even God doesn't intervene.

If it was guaranteed and you absolutely knew that your unborn child was going to one day be responsible for the extinction of the human species, would you go through with the pregnancy? I should hope not. But that is exactly what god does. He creates people knowing in advance everything that they will ever say, think or do until the day they die. THEN the fun begins. He PUNISHES you for saying, thinking and doing the things he KNEW you were going to do when he created you!! Wow.

Dear there is not all bad in the world, if He gave us the freedom of choice then many of us chose evil, but still many of us chose good. I really wouldn't be that hopeless about the world. My only simple argument is that if He were to intervene like you say, and if He had predestined everything, then He would have indeed created robots, and there would've been no purpose of such a creation.

Absolutely it does. If god is omniscient, then all we really have is the illusion of free will. God created you knowing full well we would have this conversation one day. God created me knowing full well that I would one day deny his existance. In fact, if he had previous omniscient knowledge as to exactly how my life would turn out, he created me for the sole purpose of denying him one day!! If god is truly omniscient, then we are really just little wind-up robots, performing the exact functions that he created us for, all the while thinking we have a choice.

That's non-sense, you make conscious choices and you know it, I don't feel the need to use words to explain to you that you do it. We all make conscious choices and if that isn't free will, then I am absolutely sure that you'll get convinced with nothing.

So, it's all ok that the poor suffer far worse, they'll have it better the next go around? I'm not sure how anyone can say that is moral or benevolent. To think that god watches with perfect indifference as people suffer unimaginable horrors and then justify it by saying it had to happen. That is was just a test. It will all be made up for in the afterlife. That, my friend, is not benevolence. It is quite the opposite, in fact.

The afterlife holds no worth for a disbeliever, thus you would never be able to appreciate my POV. That's what us philistines believe, this life is temporary and the afterlife is eternal. We act here, and will answer God for our deeds in the afterlife. The more resources you have from God in this life, the more questions you should expect in the afterlife. Thus the poor fare not too bad, but that doesn't count for anything with an atheist. I concede.

Except that your god DOESN'T provide sustenance to everybody, and so is therefore, by your own argument, NOT benevolent. Aproximatetly 16000 children died TODAY from hunger related causes. That's about one child every 5 seconds...all...day...long. And guess what? It'll happen again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

And how many animals, who obviously don't do a job to earn a living, die every day due to hunger? I dare say not many unless there is a serious famine somewhere.
When a child is hungry as you say, it is our responsibility to do everything possible to feed them, THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF OUR CREATION.
Tell this to yourself, If God was to set everything aright Himself, then I'm absolutely in agreement with you, there is no need for creating man. He created us, to do good and make this world heaven, and earn heaven in return in the afterlife. If we make it shit, then expect shit in the afterlife.

[Offeror]

It would never be wise that anyone tries to fathom and make sense of all the suffering in the world. A man would obviously be overwhelmed because of the numbers involved. IMO, everyone should consider their own life first and foremost and ask themselves how much have they suffered. It would be easier to rationalize this much and attribute it to God and consider the possible reasons thereof.

[freefallife]

He doesn't create murderers and rapists, he simply created man with the freedom of choice. And when He gave you that, then He doesn't intervene, for if He does then there is no free will. He let's men settle their affairs themselves.
He knows but He doesn't cause anyone to act immorally. That is a right you reserve, and even God doesn't intervene.

The question is as to god's supposed omniscience. You say that he knows. Ok then. If God already knows, before they're even born, that a person is going to murder or rape someone, why would he create them? If he has prior perfect omniscient knowledge that a person is definitely going to commit murder and goes ahead and creates that person, then he is not benevolent. He is creating a person he KNOWS 100% WILL murder, therfore introducing evil and suffering into the world. That is not benevolence.

Dear there is not all bad in the world, if He gave us the freedom of choice then many of us chose evil, but still many of us chose good. I really wouldn't be that hopeless about the world. My only simple argument is that if He were to intervene like you say, and if He had predestined everything, then He would have indeed created robots, and there would've been no purpose of such a creation.

Notice how you dodged my question there? Not going to answer that one, eh? I'll ask it again, just to be sure. If it was guaranteed and you absolutely knew that your unborn child was going to one day be responsible for the extinction of the human species, would you go through with the pregnancy?

That's non-sense, you make conscious choices and you know it, I don't feel the need to use words to explain to you that you do it. We all make conscious choices and if that isn't free will, then I am absolutely sure that you'll get convinced with nothing.

Yes we do make concious choices everyday. My point was that if god already knows exactly what you are going to choose (because he is omniscient) then we are just living with the ILLUSION of free will. How can you consider it a free choice if the outcome is previously known by god? He knew what you were going to eat for breakfast this morning before he even created the universe. (again, because that's omniscience) You THINK that it was a free, conscious choice, but it had, in fact, already been made for you. There's no way you could have chosen otherwise if your perfect god knew already! Because if you HAD chosen a different breakfast, then the universe would have collapsed as you would have singlehandedly proven that god is not omniscient.

In my spare time, I perform a lot of card magic. It's a hobby of mine. In many card tricks, a technique called a "force" is used to give the spectator the illusion of choosing a random card. In reality, I can make you choose any card I decide. It's not a free choice. I already know the card you are going to select before I even walk up to you. It is no different with god and the "free choices" you make in life. If god knows beforehand (yep, that's omniscience), then it is not a free choice. You're just a spectator, picking a card that god makes you think is random. Free will is just an illusion in the presence of an omniscient god.

I concede.

Okie dokie

And how many animals, who obviously don't do a job to earn a living, die every day due to hunger?

Depends on how many failed to catch their prey

I dare say not many unless there is a serious famine somewhere.

Great assertion. Guess all you need to do now is support it.

When a child is hungry as you say, it is our responsibility to do everything possible to feed them, THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF OUR CREATION.

So, god creates children he KNOWS will die in hopes that we will feed them? Well, if he knew we'd feed them, he wouldn't be creating children destined for starvation, now would he? But that's not what we see in the world. Once again, god knew (because he's omniscient, remember?) that 16000 children would starve to death today before he created the universe. He knew it just as fully as he knew what you were going to have for breakfast this morning. Why create the starving child?

Tell this to yourself, If God was to set everything aright Himself, then I'm absolutely in agreement with you, there is no need for creating man.

That's not my argument. I never said God should make it all go away. My argument, in this thread at least, is that god is not benevolent.

He created us, to do good and make this world heaven, and earn heaven in return in the afterlife.

And again, if god is omniscient, the he created us to do exactly what he knew we would do. For some, if not most of us, sure...we were created to do good. We do good just as god KNEW (remember, he's omniscient) we would. For the rest of us that do evil...well, he knew that was going to happen as well. That is the reason god cannot be benevolent. He knew, before he even sparked the first life on Earth and with 100% accuracy, that Hitler would slaughter millions. And you know what? He created him anyway!! If anything, that is malevolent.

[Offeror]

@freefalllife

• If God intervenes in our freewill then we are robots, no need for creation.
• He doesn't intervene, thus sets our purpose of creation to do good to others.
• God's knowing something beforehand, doesn't mean God caused that something to commit evil, as I said God doesn't intervene for if He does then we are robots, or actors playing to a script.
• God is not bound by time, for God is not subject to anything, and everything is subject to Him. So, whether it's past, present or future, God can see all of it so it's not his script that has bound our hands, but it is just God's ability to know what we will choose of our free will.
• As to your question regarding the unborn child who would extinct the human race, I would not go ahead with the pregnancy, but that is the answer of a man not God. And well at least so far the "malevolent" God hasn't created such a child. There have been mass-murderers but no one was good enough to cause an extinction. At least you could give credit to the "malevolent" God for not creating such a thing so far.
• When I kill "I" am responsible for it, and not God contrary to your assertion. God set the rules of the game. You are asking that God break his rules and jump into the frame if need be. He set the rules, "WE" do the dirty work, and you're blaming God for it. Don't worry He will make sure "YOU" burn in Hell for the good work you've done. His Benevolence is not at the cost of His Justice.

[Peter]

• If God intervenes in our freewill then we are robots, no need for creation.

I see this "robot" argument all the time and I'll never understand it. I raised three children and never once did I think the best way to raise them was to leave them with an old book of instructions and stories about me and move myself to a tropical island so they'd never know if I actually existed.

My kids knew I existed and they knew my rules and the consequences for breaking them. My kids are anything but robots. I raised them to think for themselves, do for themselves, be kind to others and expect the same kindness back. I earned their love, I didn't demand it on pain of eternal suffering.

What am I missing here? If it's so wonderful, why don't we adopt the "father" god style of parenting with our own children?

[freefallife]

@freefalllife[*]If God intervenes in our freewill then we are robots, no need for creation.

Did you miss the magic trick analogy? I thought it proved this point rather well. Answer this. Would you consider it a choice of "free-will" if you picked a card at random from a fixed deck?

[*]He doesn't intervene, thus sets our purpose of creation to do good to others.

Never said he did. I keep saying it over and over and you keep missing my point. If he knows all the answers to every choice you make, how can you consider those choices "free"?

[*]God's knowing something beforehand, doesn't mean God caused that something to commit evil.

Ok, analogy time I guess. Hypothetical. There you are, sitting in your basement constructing a nuclear bomb programed to detonate at the next major sporting event. You KNOW tens of thousands will die should you complete construction of this weapon. That's just plain evil malevolence, correct?

So, there's god, sitting in his throne, constructing the soul of the soon to be Adolph Hitler. God knows that should he complete the construction of Hitler's soul, millions will be slaughtered. What is the difference?? NONE.

The point I am trying to make all revolves around the previous knowlege of this omniscient being. He doesn't have to intervene if he knows EXACTLY what you are going to do with your life before he even creates you! Furthermore, it is just plain evil malevolence to "construct" a human soul which you know with 100% certainty will kill, rape, murder or wipe out millions.

[*]God is not bound by time, for God is not subject to anything, and everything is subject to Him. So, whether it's past, present or future, God can see all of it so it's not his script that has bound our hands, but it is just God's ability to know what we will choose of our free will.

God knows what we are going to choose with our free will? Are you kidding me? How can you call that free will? He already KNOWS...

It's no different that me knowing exactly what card you think you chose randomly from my deck!! While it may SEEM like a free choice, the reality is that the answer was already there.

Omniscience and free will can not coexist.

[*]As to your question regarding the unborn child who would extinct the human race, I would not go ahead with the pregnancy, but that is the answer of a man not God.

Well, that just goes to show that even you, a lowly human creation, is more benevolent than god. So much for omnibenevolence.

And well at least so far the "malevolent" God hasn't created such a child.

Yet. I believe there are promises made in the bible for just such a being to come into existance.

There have been mass-murderers but no one was good enough to cause an extinction. At least you could give credit to the "malevolent" God for not creating such a thing so far.

By jove I think he's got it!! Hey I never said god was omnimalevolent. My point in all this was to show that an omniscient god can not be omnibenevolent.

[*]When I kill "I" am responsible for it, and not God contrary to your assertion.

Kind of goes back to the child bearing question I had. Sure, you did the killing, but god created you KNOWING before hand that you would do just that! In any court of law, at least, god would be considered an accessory to murder. In the end, it was god that facilitated the murder...by creating a murderer. It would be no different than if I gave you my 9mm Baretta knowing with 100% certainty that you were going to kill your spouse with it.

God set the rules of the game. You are asking that God break his rules and jump into the frame if need be. He set the rules, "WE" do the dirty work, and you're blaming God for it.

Once again, god does not have to intervene in something to which he already has all the answers to...that is IF he's omniscient.

Don't worry He will make sure "YOU" burn in Hell for the good work you've done. His Benevolence is not at the cost of His Justice.

Well, I appreciate the bold face theistic threat. I think I have readily showed god's lack of (omni)benevolence. We can start a new thread on his "perfect" justice if you like.

[ItsDarts]

@freefalllife

• If God intervenes in our freewill then we are robots, no need for creation.

• If YOU stop a child (any child) from running across a busy street to save his life, you only remove free will "AT THAT MOMENT" "from THAT particular child, it does not remove free will in general or from anyone else and THAT child is still not a robot. This is the same tired argument spewed by Christians and it fails them as well.
  
  

• He doesn't intervene, thus sets our purpose of creation to do good to others.

[Offeror]

If YOU stop a child (any child) from running across a busy street to save his life, you only remove free will "AT THAT MOMENT" "from THAT particular child, it does not remove free will in general or from anyone else and THAT child is still not a robot. This is the same tired argument spewed by Christians and it fails them as well.

What if that child grows up to be a serial killer? Then does your free will "AT THAT MOMENT" not fail. Of course God will know that too, so you will again require Divine Intervention. You will need man-cum-robots to meet your requirements.

Do you never ask god to help sick loved ones? Christians do. THey even claim that "God Answered My prayers". Is this not the case with Islam? WHy do you people pray 5 times a day? What do you pray for/about?

A prayer is bowing before the one true God worthy of worship, it teaches control and discipline. Yes we do pray to God for something we wish, but that does not make it obligatory for God to answer our prayers, for He is not a servant of ours.

[freefallife]

No refutation for me, Offeror? I can't say I'm surprised.

[Questatement]

So you don't characterize the "bibles concept of the remediation of sin" as vicarious redemption? Jesus did not die for mankinds sins then and in the future?

I do, I just don't hold up Lewis any higher than the lower half of the long list of great scholars in Christendom.

God doesn't demand that we accept this grisly "gift" or be punished?

Do you eat meat? If so, do you accept the grisly demise of the animal for the sake of providing you with that same meat? As an evolutionist, if one animal's death for such a purpose turns your stomach, all animal's death should, no?

This gift that I would reject out of hand if I were given the choice. This gift that I would try to prevent if I had been there beside the cross.

Well, if it was by divine intention, I wish you luck with stopping it.

This guy executing himself for my sins without asking me and then demanding that I accept his scapegoating or be punished eternally is just sick. It is immoral no matter how you wish to spin it.

The day you were born, what laws entailing rewards and punishments were already in existence? Did you have any say over them?

If a Good Samaritan lost his life attempting to save, and successfully saving, yours tonight would you also find that "immoral" and "sick?" Did that GS know what he was getting into with said attempt?

[Questatement]

Did you miss the magic trick analogy? I thought it proved this point rather well. Answer this. Would you consider it a choice of "free-will" if you picked a card at random from a fixed deck?

Ah, but in this scenario you've put a limit on omniscience even though you have given lip service to no limits.

What if God built the deck and rules of the 'trick' around and as a result of the free-will choices that he knew would one day be made?

Wouldn't free-will then preempt the rest?

[ItsDarts]

What if that child grows up to be a serial killer? Then does your free will "AT THAT MOMENT" not fail.

Of course not unless someone or something intervenes, FOR that Moment. Since God would know about this potential serial killer, he is obligated to intervene for the moment if he is to be credited with benevolence. Lack of intervention with complete knowledge = malevolence.

You will need man-cum-robots to meet your requirements.

Huh?

A prayer is bowing before the one true God worthy of worship, it teaches control and discipline. Yes we do pray to God for something we wish, but that does not make it obligatory for God to answer our prayers, for He is not a servant of ours.

Again, there is no evidence that only one true god exists. It could be argued that a car takes more than one person to create, whats to say there wasn't more than one god to create the universe? But for sake of argument, lets assume it is YOUR god that you pray too. Why ask for anything? He already knows what you wish for, aren't you being presumptuous to ask him for something that may be against his grand plan? Is it NOT pointless to ask for anything? If he grants your wish, is it really being granted or is it just a part of his grand plan anyway? If he grants your wish, is he not intervening in our lives? If he does the opposite of your wish, is this not undermining your free will? Do you not see the faulty logic in belief of this god?

"If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another."

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or he can, but does not want to; Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?"
--Epicurus 340-270BCE