If Israel goes to war with Iran should we join in?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: westcoastdog Iran is a rogue nation and does not respect international law. Can you cite any other country that has held hostage members of a foreign embassy? The fact that Iran is enriching uranium is a violation of their interenational agreements.

Man, you need to turn off the talking heads and think for yourself. You're a Jew aren't you?

Don't buy the Zionist rhetoric. Israel is a nation like any other, no more special to the people of the US than France. Israel has NUCLEAR WEAPONS. And they are not a party to the agreement on non-proliferation. So...A clandestine nuclear power in the middle east with known aggressive tendencies... Remember Lebanon?

Iran agreed to suspend enrichment, but never said the suspension would be permanent. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ear/index.html

Going to war is a big deal. Unless the US is clearly physically threatened, it is not justifiable to use military force. Preventive war is actually a war crime.

[westcoastdog]

Athena: How about the US introduced nuclear weapons to the mid east by giving them to Israel.

??? What evidence do you have for that statement?

Do you also believe that the U.S. gave nuclear bomb technology to Pakistan, India and North Korea? As Pakistan and North Korea have shown, nuclear bomb technology is accessible to even underdeveloped nations. Supposedly, instructions can be found on the Internet.

Athena, do you believe that six million Jews were murdered during WWII? Are you aware that when the UN formed Israel in 1948, all the surrounding Arab countries invaded the new country; there were even English generals involved in the attacks. Are you aware that Israel is receiving almost daily rocket attacks from Gaza? What would be the U.S. response if San Diego was receiving rocket fire from Tijuana?

I have Jewish friends who lost all German relatives during WWII...all.

Israel has the ability to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat, but has practiced restraint because of the U.S. Incidentally, during the Iraq-Iran war, Israel supported Iran, which is an irony; no good deed goes unpunished. http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/sni...uration_01.htm

Senior P. Henry, no I'm not Jewish. Can you name any other country that has held foreign diplomats as hostages? If Iran had no oil, how many friends do you think it would have?

BTW, I oppose military intervention in Iran, and I also opposed the invasion of Iraq. I also believe Iran doesn't have the courage to attack Israel. Lots of barking, no teeth to bite.

[jose]

Quote by: westcoastdog Can you name any other country that has held foreign diplomats as hostages?

I just did the rebels in peru held the Japanese embassy and staff hostage.
also if your in favour of America getting involved in another War i refer you to a previous post of yours ¨Had we had saner leadership, we would have never attacked Iraq¨ Why the U.S. lost Iraq
may i look forward to a reply from you to my other questions?

[shrike]

QUOTE]Israel is a nation like any other, no more special to the people of the US than France[/quote]
Of course no one ever claimed otherwise.

Israel has NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Any proof of that? Israel may have the Nuclear Weapons .Israel have to maintain the policy of deliberate ambiguity. Because if it has no weapons the Arab countries can attack freely Israel.

Remember Lebanon?

Yes I remember Lebanon. Can you answer why Israel attacked maybe it was constant attacks on civilian population that came from Lebanon territory.

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Man, you need to turn off the talking heads and think for yourself. You're a Jew aren't you? Don't buy the Zionist rhetoric. Israel is a nation like any other, no more special to the people of the US than France. Israel has NUCLEAR WEAPONS. And they are not a party to the agreement on non-proliferation. So...A clandestine nuclear power in the middle east with known aggressive tendencies... Remember Lebanon? Iran agreed to suspend enrichment, but never said the suspension would be permanent. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ear/index.html Going to war is a big deal. Unless the US is clearly physically threatened, it is not justifiable to use military force. Preventive war is actually a war crime.

Patrick: Ditto man. The US needs to be involved in another war like we need more nuclear warheads. The countries in the Middle East all need to sit down among themselves and sort out how to coexist peacefully so as not to blow up the entire planet. And they don't require any help from the US.

[jose]

snip
Despite refusals to comment on the issue by the Israeli government, the Israelis clearly have a sizeable nuclear arsenal. There are two interesting loopholes in Israel's oft-repeated pledge never to be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the region: The U.S. "introduced" weapons in the region in the 1950's when nuclear bombs were stored at Dharan, Saudi Arabia and at sea in the Mediteranean Sixth Fleet
http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: westcoastdog ...Athena, do you believe that six million Jews were murdered during WWII? Are you aware that when the UN formed Israel in 1948, all the surrounding Arab countries invaded the new country; there were even English generals involved in the attacks. Are you aware that Israel is receiving almost daily rocket attacks from Gaza? What would be the U.S. response if San Diego was receiving rocket fire from Tijuana? ... Senior P. Henry, no I'm not Jewish. Can you name any other country that has held foreign diplomats as hostages? If Iran had no oil, how many friends do you think it would have? BTW, I oppose military intervention in Iran, and I also opposed the invasion of Iraq. I also believe Iran doesn't have the courage to attack Israel. Lots of barking, no teeth to bite.

Good for you to oppose aggressive militarism, wcd. Let's hope that all that we get from Iran is some hot rhetoric and no gunsmoke.

I assumed from your pro-Israeli posts that you are an American Jew. But since that is not your ethnicity, please disregard.

I won't go into the whole other side of the argument re: the founding of Israel, since that's a red herring on this thread.

As for the Gaza rocket attacks, I don't regard Israeli indiscriminate shelling as an proper response to terror attacks on national territory: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12216932/

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Technosoul Israel and Iran are exchanging theats, Israel claims Iran has declared war. If they go to war with each other should the USA help Israel out or should we stay the heck out their war?

it won't last long if Iran goes to war. it is already written that they will end up going to war. read Daniel

[westcoastdog]

Senior Jose,

You flunked current events and history and apparently don't read any real newspapers--NY Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, etc. Ever since he was elected, Ahmadinejad has been making threats against Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/wo...=1&oref=slogin

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=55856

Do a Google search on "Iran threatens Israel" and you will find over 5 million websites.

The Israeli government is concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons program, a concern shared by most of the world. Israel does not want to wipe Iran off the face of the earth. Are you in favor of Iran having nuclear bombs?

Regarding the Peruvian hostage crisis, the perpetrators were rebels, not the government, and it was the government that freed the hostages. I hope you know the difference between a rebel group and the established government. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin...peru_4-23.html

Although it was a left wing student group that was responsible for the takeover of the U.S. embassy in Tehran, the control was taken over by the Khomeini government, which released the hostages when Reagan took office.

Senior P. Henry, what would you do if San Diego was being rocketed from Tijuana? BTW, you said indiscriminte shelling by the Israelis. False. Israel radar tracks the rockets to the source. Palestinians fire the rockets from alleys and streets in residential areas.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: westcoastdog Senior Jose, You flunked current events and history and apparently don't read any real newspapers--NY Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, etc. Ever since he was elected, Ahmadinejad has been making threats against Israel. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/wo...=1&oref=slogin http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=55856 Do a Google search on "Iran threatens Israel" and you will find over 5 million websites. The Israeli government is concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons program, a concern shared by most of the world. Israel does not want to wipe Iran off the face of the earth. Are you in favor of Iran having nuclear bombs? Regarding the Peruvian hostage crisis, the perpetrators were rebels, not the government, and it was the government that freed the hostages. I hope you know the difference between a rebel group and the established government. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin...peru_4-23.html Although it was a left wing student group that was responsible for the takeover of the U.S. embassy in Tehran, the control was taken over by the Khomeini government, which released the hostages when Reagan took office. Senior P. Henry, what would you do if San Diego was being rocketed from Tijuana? BTW, you said indiscriminte shelling by the Israelis. False. Israel radar tracks the rockets to the source. Palestinians fire the rockets from alleys and streets in residential areas.

add HAMAS to the group and we can get a rather good look at Israel's situation. HAMAS has already basically declared war, and Iran isn't very far behind. I expect war to happen within the month.

[shrike]

I expect war to happen within the month

Do you want to bet on it?There will be no war.

JERUSALEM, April 18 — Israel said Tuesday that it would increase political pressure on the Palestinian government in response to a suicide bombing the day before, but gave no hint of planning a major military response or singling out members of the Hamas-dominated government for arrest or assassination

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/wo...19mideast.html

[Quismo]

Just as good in '69 as it is today.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: shrike Do you want to bet on it?There will be no war. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/wo...19mideast.html

just because Israel doesn't start it doesnt mean it won't happen. HAMAS will NOT disarm. HAMAS continues to advocate violence against Israel:

The new Hamas-led Palestinian Authority (PA) government is based on a platform that rejects Israel’s right to exist and calls for continued violence. The platform, combined with the statements by Hamas leaders, makes clear that the group is not prepared to meet the requirements for legitimacy set by the international community. The United States and the international community must continue to exert pressure on Hamas to force real change by withholding diplomatic and financial support from the Hamas-led PA until the new government recognizes Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, ends terrorism and accepts previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements.

Commitment to Terrorism:
“We were born from the womb of resistance, we will protect resistance and the arm of resistance will not be touched.”
-- Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh (Reuters, 3/28/06)
“The Koran is our constitution, Jihad is our way, and death for the sake of God is our highest aspiration.”
-- Hamas MP Hamed Bitawi (Reuters, 3/28/06)
“…so long as U.S. policy is biased, the so-called terrorism that the United States fears will escalate because the mistakes of U.S. foreign policy are pouring oil on fire.”
-- Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal (Reuters, 3/21/06).
“Our fate is to combine resistance and politics, but resistance remains the basis and politics only a branch.”
-- Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal (Reuters, 3/17/06).
“Allah be praised, we have thousands of young men. They all yearn for martyrdom for the sake of Allah. Some of them even cry when they do not get the chance to commit martyrdom. As long as we have such determination, we will prevail, Allah willing.”
-- Hamas MP Umm Nidal (Saudi Iqra TV, 2/19/06, MEMRI translation).
Refusing to Recognize Israel:
“Even if the US gave us all its money in return for recognizing Israel and giving up one inch of Palestine, we would never do so even if this costs us our lives… Our right to pursue the resistance will remain as long as the occupation continues over our lands and holy sites.”
-- Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar (The Jerusalem Post, 3/27/06)
“Recognizing the state of the Israeli enemy is not on the table. Our program is to liberate Palestine, all of Palestine.”
-- Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar (The Jerusalem Post, 3/27/06)
“It means a negation of the Palestinian people and their rights and their property, of Jerusalem and the holy sites, as well as negation of their right of return. Therefore the recognition of Israel is not on the agenda.”
-- Hamas Leader Moussa Abu Marzouk (Reuters, 3/4/06).
“We cannot recognize Israel. … The land of Palestine is ours and not for the Jews.”
-- Minister of Information Youssef Rizka (Reuters, 3/28/06).
Refusing to Disarm:
“The day will never come when any Palestinian would be arrested because of his political affiliation or because of resisting the occupation.”
-- Interior Minister Sayeed Seyam (Reuters, 3/23/06).
“[i] did not come to the government to revive any security cooperation. … I came to protect our people and their fighters.”
-- Interior Minister Saeed Seyam (Reuters, 3/23/06).
“We also reject the security coordination with Israel.”
-- Religious Affairs Minister Nayef Rajoub (The Boston Globe, 3/16/06).
“Armed resistance is legitimate. All resistance options are open to the Palestinian people and Palestinian factions including Hamas.”
-- Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal (Reuters, 3/21/06).
Rejecting the Peace Process:
“Palestine is for the Muslims, and no one can give it up. … Resistance for us is a legitimate action. Divine and human laws give us the right to resist.”
-- Religious Affairs Minister Nayef Rajoub (The New Yorker, 2/27/06).
“Being in power is only a means to an end for Hamas… Power is not our ultimate goal. If it becomes one, let power go to hell. It will not hold us back from our targets which we hold dear.”
-- Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal (Reuters, 3/17/06).
“We and the Zionists have a date with destiny. If they want a fight, we are ready for it. If they want a war, we are the sons of war. If they want a struggle, we are for it to the end, We have more stamina than Israel and we will defeat it, God willing.”
-- Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal (Reuters, 3/17/06).
“The foundation of our plan is resistance which is a strategic choice for the movement. Negotiation and compromise has no place in our plans. Based on this plan we will never recognize Israel and the Road Map plan. In fact we are against these policies and the future sovereignty supports resistance.”
-- Hamas Representative in Iran Abu Usama (Keyhan, 3/5/06).


http://aipac.org/hamas/HamasWords.htm

HAMAS is going to go to war. whether we say so or not. live in your little bubble if you want. this is what hamas is saying.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: westcoastdog ...Ever since he was elected, Ahmadinejad has been making threats against Israel.

His threats have been rather vague. Unless you understand Farsi, how do you know what he is really implying with his harsh statements towards Israe?

Quote by: westcoastdog Do a Google search on "Iran threatens Israel" and you will find over 5 million websites.

Well, I did so and I got some hits (not 5 million). One of them is actually a reversal of the terms. Who is threatening who in this story: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...396791,00.html

Quote by: westcoastdog The Israeli government is concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons program, a concern shared by most of the world. Israel does not want to wipe Iran off the face of the earth. Are you in favor of Iran having nuclear bombs?

If Israel could wipe Iran off the map of the middle East without adverse world opinion, I have no doubt they would do so. Iran with nuclear forces is scary. So is a nuclear-armed Russia...And given my druthers, I would also want Israel stripped of her atomic arsenal...

Quote by: westcoastdog Although it was a left wing student group that was responsible for the takeover of the U.S. embassy in Tehran, the control was taken over by the Khomeini government, which released the hostages when Reagan took office.

Not to excuse holding diplomats hostage, but rebels have frequently done so and the Iranian situation was in the midst of a radical shift in government. The US had supported the previous despot who had systematically tortured and killed the people of his own nation. Much like many of the US "friends" over the years. Sorta understandable that the new regime would not be too friendly with the US, especially since their own nation's assets were being held hostage.

Quote by: westcoastdog Senior P. Henry, what would you do if San Diego was being rocketed from Tijuana?

I might try to find out why the Mexicans were so pissed off...

Quote by: westcoastdog BTW, you said indiscriminte shelling by the Israelis. False. Israel radar tracks the rockets to the source. Palestinians fire the rockets from alleys and streets in residential areas.

Says you...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12216932/

Israel launched 900 artillery shells at northern Gaza since Thursday, the army said. During that time, the militants fired 10 rockets at Israel....No Israelis were wounded in the rocket fire over the weekend.

900 artillery rounds in retaliation for 10 rockets which wounded no Israelis. Not indiscriminate? OK, I see your bias...

[westcoastdog]

The reality of Muslim violence, Israel, and U.S. foreign policy. Beginning in West Africa and going eastward to Indonesia, there are dozens of Muslim rebellions and terrorists groups, many of whom are attempting to overthrow moderate Muslim governments. What would be the consequence if Israel succumbed to the Muslims? All of these rebel and terrorists groups would be inspired and invigorated and their eyes would be focused on the U.S. First Israel, then the U.S.

Senior P. Henry, you used the word "indiscriminate" to describe Israel's reaction. From your own cited website,

"...Over the weekend, Israel began for the first time time firing artillery at rocket-launch sites in populated areas."

Do you remember when the Palestinian rocket attacks began? A few days after Israel left Gaza, months ago.

Quote by: westcoastdog Senior P. Henry, what would you do if San Diego was being rocketed from Tijuana? I might try to find out why the Mexicans were so pissed off...

What if they want Texas, Arizona and southern California returned to Mexico. I would give them Texas and Arizona and keep southern California because I have relatives there.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: westcoastdog Senior P. Henry, you used the word "indiscriminate" to describe Israel's reaction. From your own cited website, "...Over the weekend, Israel began for the first time time firing artillery at rocket-launch sites in populated areas." Do you remember when the Palestinian rocket attacks began? A few days after Israel left Gaza, months ago. Quote by: westcoastdog Senior P. Henry, what would you do if San Diego was being rocketed from Tijuana? I might try to find out why the Mexicans were so pissed off... What if they want Texas, Arizona and southern California returned to Mexico. I would give them Texas and Arizona and keep southern California because I have relatives there.

LOL! I would try reaching a compromise that would keep my national territory intact, but acknowleged their grievances...

I think that the real grievance of the Palestinians is about a Forty-year long occupation...

[westcoastdog]

Question. Do know you when the first massacre of Jewish settlers occurred in Palestine? Hint: It happened during the British occupation.

Some Middle East trivia. The British began the practice of blowing up the houses of suspected terrorists.

[PatrickHenry]

You are going seriously off-topic here, wcd. I'll debate the validity of Zionism in another thread if you wish...

or maybe not. I have done it so many times before with your predecessors...

[Technosoul]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Quote by: Technosoul Israel and Iran are exchanging theats, Israel claims Iran has declared war. If they go to war with each other should the USA help Israel out or should we stay the heck out their war? it won't last long if Iran goes to war. it is already written that they will end up going to war. read Daniel

Read Daniel - that is a lot of reading ya know. Which verse or chapter? And then I might be able to respond in the negative or affrimitive. Perhap someone can post the particular parts of Daniel that some feel might be a prediction. As we know Bush and (back then Reagan) were aware of those passages and might be influenced by them (so that is in keeping with this topic and not just "preaching"). That would give some insight into what is going on..

[Technosoul]

To have peace at all they need to totally surrender everything that belongs to the past, leave it in the past. And start off only with the realities the have to do with just the "here and now". Make up their minds not to be influenced by anything historical, be it religious or due to past conflicts, and make that deal - this land is yours, this land is ours, and that it how it will be from now on. Even if they must draw cards to see who gets what concerning the debated parts of that real estate. The deal must also insure common useage of natural resources such as rivers and port accesses.

That would be the only real roadmap to peace. As they cannot both agreee to do that, we cannot expect peace for that area of the world, untl one side or the other gains complete control via a massive and bloody war.

The concept that they have God given rights of property is the cause of war, and wars. and more wars. The rights of god given rights of property not only promote wars but also it justifies wars. And as long as people live under such illusionary rights, the reality of peace on earth will never be found.

Truely, the rights of property are not worth the hemp they are written upon. Unless you believe wars are a good thing. And that (although rather radical) is not an opinion but a self evident truism that is backed up by much historical proof. As men seek to own, what was free and offered equally to all who walk the planet. If truth were known.