The fiction of capital punishment

[brien]

Quote by: westcoastdog Although I'm a member of the ACLU, I think all males should have their DNA on file. The ACLU would fight tooth and nail to oppose this requirement, but the incidence of rape and perhaps other violent crimes would fall dramatically. All a woman would have to do is scratch her assailant, and his DNA would be under her finger nails.

I am against executions in most cases, however the very idea of ALL MALES having their DNA on file smacks of a totalitarian state right out of "1984" or Nazi Gernmany and is offensive to me, and perhaps, all freedom loving individuals. I am not suprised considering the author of its suggestion though.

"Vhere are your DNA papers. Ahhh, so no papers, eh?. You vill come this vey and ve vill take care of this, schnell !." I yi yi. What will ever become of these United States and our Constitution with ideas such as these. :eek:

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Are you going to post an actual reply, or just post a menaingless one liner which adds nothing to the debate?

Is it better to add nothing to a debate or to actually take away from the debate by posting websites with no credibility?

Or maybe I should post my own websites.

www.deathpenaltyisreallysweet.org
www.yeahdeathpenalty.org

I guess because it has .org on it and someone pays the $40 a month for the webspace that it's credible.


I mean you might as well just come on here and flat out lie.

[Matt W]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Is it better to add nothing to a debate or to actually take away from the debate by posting websites with no credibility?

If you had some evidence of your own to refute those statistics, perhaps your argument would make sense. As it is, you take away from the debate by refusing to contribute. You have an opinion - now I suggest you back it up - with links that actually go somewhere. :rolleyes:

[tman_ndsu08]

I've told you countless times that there are peer reviewed studies in the SoF bibliography. I don't care to look them up. Go do a search on them.

[Matt W]

And I've told you many a time that the onus is on you to provide the links. You make an assertion, you provide the evidence. If you don't care to look them up, then move on.

[tman_ndsu08]

As if I made up the book.

You know damn well that it's a million+ copy best seller and that it has peer reviewed studies.

[Matt W]

Provide the links, tman, or give it up. Otherwise, it's just assertion. You know how it works round here, so stop being lazy and get on with it.

Do not respond to me within this thread. PM myself or Sean for details.

[Scribbler1]

To return to the original post, I think you don't see rich men get the DP because they generally don't commit premeditated first degree murder.

And O.J. Simpson doesn't count because, although the trial was a sham, he wasn't found guilty so NO penalty applies.

[Chris the Chees]

Tman, if you want to continue this discussion about posting and debate etiquette, do so via PM.

Do not reply to this message within the thread, if you have any questions or quieries dorect them to my self, another moderator or Sean via PM.

PS, Come on guys lets get on topic!

ANd I just noticed Matt has done it anyway.

BTW Tman, I have never heard of this apparently important work. I would be obliged if you would be so good as to send its title and author to me via PM.

[westcoastdog]

No one yet has given a reason why DNA is significantly different than finger prints. All military personnel are finger printed, all federal workers, all California State workers, and California applicants for drivers' licenses are required to be finger printed. Also teachers and many other professionals.

Explain to me how DNA records could be abused?

I worked for the Veterans Administration that has medical records of millions of veterans, and I never heard of improper disclosure of records. Same with the Social Security Administration. Also, what use is someone's DNA fingerprint? Have you ever seen a printout of a DNA fingerprint? Just a lot of blots, like an abstract painting. If the government wants information about you, it can obtain it without difficulty. And now with the Internet, you too can get personal information about anyone.
On the positive side of DNA collection, serials rapists and child molesters will be monsters of the past if the government had everyone's DNA fingerprint.

Getting back to capital punishment, two of the worst serial killers in U.S. history, the Green River killer and the Angel of Death, both escaped the death penalty because they agreed to give information about their victims. What lesson does this teach murderers? Kill a bunch, hide the bodies, and when caught, negotiate a plea bargain that will preclude the death penalty.

Scribbler, it's true the rich commit less murders, but they do. Remember the billionaire's boys club and the fellow down in Texas who dismembered his neighbor. Was any rich person executed during the 20th century? I would count O.J. because his money bought smarter lawyers than the government lawyers.

[tman_ndsu08]

You can change your finger print. You can't change your DNA.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: westcoastdog Scribbler, it's true the rich commit less murders, but they do. Remember the billionaire's boys club and the fellow down in Texas who dismembered his neighbor. Was any rich person executed during the 20th century? I would count O.J. because his money bought smarter lawyers than the government lawyers.

If memory serves, the "Billionaire Boys Club" was just the name and these guys were just con men and not billionaires.
O.J. Simpson was doubly lucky. Johnnie Cochran was a sleazy genius AND the jury wasn't privvy to the same info the rest of us were. More than one of them said they would have nailed him if they knew what we knew from the news. Of course this still leaves the actual penalty in question.

[westcoastdog]

The Billionaire boys club members came from affluent families and hired expensive lawyers. You'e right about Cochran being a genius, an expensive genius; all the top lawyers are expensive. I read the O.J.'s defence cost $10 million. Does anyone know if a rich person has ever been executed in the U.S.?

Someone wanted cites for my figures and dates:

All homicides,
1976-2002

Percent Number

Total 100.0% 544,909

about 21,000 annually.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/intimates.htm


1000th execution December 2, 2005. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4490842.stm

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: westcoastdog No one yet has given a reason why DNA is significantly different than finger prints. All military personnel are finger printed, all federal workers, all California State workers, and California applicants for drivers' licenses are required to be finger printed. Also teachers and many other professionals. Explain to me how DNA records could be abused?

Fingerprints can't be placed inside of a woman's vagina, or really in many other places, to accuse me of a crime. DNA records requires having cellular tissue on file. Cellular tissue can be used to grow other cellular tissue, which can then be placed anywhere the authorities want in order to implicate someone in a crime.

Fingerprints are only reliable when they are placed very carefully (or carelessly by a criminal) on a hard, mostly flat surface. DNA can be sprinkled out of a jar ANYWHERE and is much more convincing to a jury, for good or for bad.

And I wouldn't want my fingerprints on file either. People that have fingerprints on file now are either arrested for a crime, which means there is probable cause to think that they did something wrong, or they have volunteered their fingerprints (all the various jobs you cited).

[westcoastdog]

So how is someone going to get copies of my DNA? We're not discussing keeping tissue/blood/etc. samples. I'm talking about the analysis, the printout of the DNA, which identifies specific markers unique to an individual.

How do you think DNA matching is performed? Computers do it from the data acquired from the analysis and match it with the database. In California a database has been created for criminals, and, I understand, the federal government is linking all the various state DNA databases.

A comprehensive database could be used against many other crimes. I've had three cars stolen and my house burglarized twice. It's likely the criminals left some DNA evidence, usually hair. If everyone's DNA was on file, a hand vacuum cleaner might become law enforcement's main tool. As you are aware, in high profile cases, the police often search for DNA clues, as in rape cases.

Tivodan, are you an American? I asked this question because you don't seem familiar with American procedures. Finger prints are often a requirement in many industries: medical, banking, investment, and anyone industry that wants to screen out convicted criminals, as well as most if not all government positions. Criminals are only a small fraction of the finger print database.

[Osborn F Enready]

How did we get from capital punishment to the DNA dialogue?

How about staying on topic?

[westcoastdog]

No one has challenged my contention that capital punishment in the U.S. is more fiction than fact. There's science fiction and now in the U.S. we have judicial fiction. :rolleyes:

[Osborn F Enready]

The only fiction worth mentioning is the "peace and security" stage show offered by both major parties, and their patsies..... The Executive Branch, The Legislative Branch, and the Judicial Branch.

All infiltrated by partisan hacks, working for the bi-partisan monopoly.

[westcoastdog]

Senior Enready,

Although this is a digression, who do you believe controls our government and economy?

[Osborn F Enready]

By design, or currently?

By design, the people.

Currently, corporations, private intrest groups, religion, and a circle jerk of the bi-partisan elite.