democrats on immigration...

[bishop]

after giving republicans much deserved bashing for their complete mismanagement of our country's affairs, it's time to give the dems' a nice shot in the pants...

watching this whole immigration battle progress, the dems are clearly playing games imo.. they're using this issue to splinter the once-united republican party. of course, the republicans have already been splintering apart with mid-term elections drawing near, and incumbents falling over themselves to run away from bush - but the dems want to twist the knife in their wounds apparently..

the dems are currently pushing their own legislation that is extremely generous to ILLEGAL immigrants. at face value, it doesn't specify how its provisions (requiring they learn english, etc.) would actually be enforced.. something nice on paper and completely toothless in reality. and at the same time, they oppose building a wall, or any other measure to actually stop/drastically reduce the constant flow of illegals into our country. there are a lot of republicans who are no different on this issue, like mccain for instance, but they are splintered while the dems are united in their pro-illegal immigration stance.

one of the most favored arguments the dems love using is that these people enter our country to "do work that americans don't want to do".. what utter bullshit. the reason why americans don't want to do that work is because they can't afford to receive depressed mexican wages (however many cents/hour that comes out to be).. the wages weren't always that bad, and there certainly used to be lots of americans working as sanitation workers, construction workers, farm hands, etc.. hell, my grandfather didn't have any problem working on a farm driving a tractor for a period of time.. wages used to be good for people in these lines of work, but the pro-illegal immigration group's acceptance of illegal immigration has created the environment where these jobs no longer pay livable wages (by american standards)..

the dems have recently been suggesting that our economy needs illegal immigrants to come in (illegally) and work for pennies.. what a load of bullshit. if illegals were gone, there certainly would be a labor void, and employers would be forced to pay more for labor, which would cause prices to inflate.. but, what isn't said is that equilibrium would eventually set in - we got used to exploiting illegals for cheap labor and we can easily get used to having americans paid to do the same work.

[grandpa]

Quote by: bishop after giving republicans much deserved bashing for their complete mismanagement of our country's affairs, it's time to give the dems' a nice shot in the pants... watching this whole immigration battle progress, the dems are clearly playing games imo.. they're using this issue to splinter the once-united republican party. of course, the republicans have already been splintering apart with mid-term elections drawing near, and incumbents falling over themselves to run away from bush - but the dems want to twist the knife in their wounds apparently.. the dems are currently pushing their own legislation that is extremely generous to ILLEGAL immigrants. at face value, it doesn't specify how its provisions (requiring they learn english, etc.) would actually be enforced.. something nice on paper and completely toothless in reality. and at the same time, they oppose building a wall, or any other measure to actually stop/drastically reduce the constant flow of illegals into our country. there are a lot of republicans who are no different on this issue, like mccain for instance, but they are splintered while the dems are united in their pro-illegal immigration stance. one of the most favored arguments the dems love using is that these people enter our country to "do work that americans don't want to do".. what utter bullshit. the reason why americans don't want to do that work is because they can't afford to receive depressed mexican wages (however many cents/hour that comes out to be).. the wages weren't always that bad, and there certainly used to be lots of americans working as sanitation workers, construction workers, farm hands, etc.. hell, my grandfather didn't have any problem working on a farm driving a tractor for a period of time.. wages used to be good for people in these lines of work, but the pro-illegal immigration group's acceptance of illegal immigration has created the environment where these jobs no longer pay livable wages (by american standards).. the dems have recently been suggesting that our economy needs illegal immigrants to come in (illegally) and work for pennies.. what a load of bullshit. if illegals were gone, there certainly would be a labor void, and employers would be forced to pay more for labor, which would cause prices to inflate.. but, what isn't said is that equilibrium would eventually set in - we got used to exploiting illegals for cheap labor and we can easily get used to having americans paid to do the same work.

You are addressing an imaginary problem created by the very thing you support: The illegal immigrant status. It's a perfect tool for blackmailing Mexicans so they will not demand greater pay. And the guest worker program is an excuse to exploit Mexicans and send them away after some arbitrary time period expires.

Why are so many jobs going to other countries? Because the work is cheaper in them!
It's not impoverished workers in poor countries that are your enemy--they just want to work and survive just like you. The enemy is the global system that uses nationalism and xenophobia as tools of exploitation and class subordination. The people in charge of our corporation-loving government serve the interests of the wealthy, which involve turning working class and poor people against each other by whatever means come easiest to hand.
It just so happens that fearing "border jumpers" and "them illegals" is an easy way to drum up support for the agendas of people with money. The results are obvious: Let's fear impoverished people and classify them as "illegal aliens"--thus breaking solidarity with them--and instead have solidarity with people who are powerful, who place themselves ahead of the general welfare and who have more money than they know what to do with.

The best solution:
Let them come into the country and work for equal wages, which a majority of them would likely want.

Grandpa h.

[lsbskins1]

The problem is not the immigrants themselves, the problem is the people who would exploit those less fortunate so that they can have the company they Chair buy a lear jet that can take them to New York every tuesday so that they can have dinner in that nice place on 5th Avenue.

This is about increasing profits. This benefits the CEO's and certain select BIG TIME investors. You don't pay any less for the strawberries you eat or the meal in the resturant, or the bed in the hotel room. It all goes to increasing the wealth of those who already have ass loads of money. Check the numbers. See the bottom line for farm production today v. 20 years ago. See if the cost of food has decreased for you on a par with the loss of production cost. It has not. All that money has gone into the pockets of companies like ADM. And then they tell people how much of a struggle it is to stay in business and rather than asking the right questions, people allow themselves to be manipulated into fearing others, who only want to feed their kids and have a decent life.

Democrats deserve shit, not because they don't "protect our borders", but because they protect their re-election war chests by parroting the lies of greedy bastards.

[bishop]

the only real difference in our positions is that i don't want illegal immigrants to be rewarded - and i don't want miscreant employers rewarded with illegal immigrants that they have and will continue to exploit to the detriment of american citizens.

i don't have a problem if the enter the country through legal means, but i have no interest in extending any services or amnesty towards ILLEGAL immigrants. and, i have absolutely no xenophobic or racist motives behind my opposition to ILLEGAL immigrants. you can label me a bigot if you like (which would be quite the ignorant move), but if you immigrate into this country outside of the legal process (like being smuggled in on a truck), then you most certainly ARE an illegal immigrant despite this proletariat rhetoric you're preaching.

you seem more concerned about these mexicans than americans - who were working these jobs before illegals came in and drove wages down through the floor. shit, let's just let them all come in unhindered and give them (re: miscreant employers AND illegal immigrants) whatever they want. american citizens don't deserve to have their own interests supported by the politicians they misguidedly elect.

[RVonse]

I agree with Bishop on all counts.

And not only that, if we don't do something pretty soon Americans will soon be speaking Spanish and saluting the Green flag. We are being invaded from the south.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: bishop the only real difference in our positions is that i don't want illegal immigrants to be rewarded - and i don't want miscreant employers rewarded with illegal immigrants that they have and will continue to exploit to the detriment of american citizens. i don't have a problem if the enter the country through legal means, but i have no interest in extending any services or amnesty towards ILLEGAL immigrants. and, i have absolutely no xenophobic or racist motives behind my opposition to ILLEGAL immigrants. you can label me a bigot if you like (which would be quite the ignorant move), but if you immigrate into this country outside of the legal process (like being smuggled in on a truck), then you most certainly ARE an illegal immigrant despite this proletariat rhetoric you're preaching. you seem more concerned about these mexicans than americans - who were working these jobs before illegals came in and drove wages down through the floor. shit, let's just let them all come in unhindered and give them (re: miscreant employers AND illegal immigrants) whatever they want. american citizens don't deserve to have their own interests supported by the politicians they misguidedly elect.

I've been away for a while. Look, my position is this. Everyone in Mexico is just as human as I am. People in Panama and any other nation to our south are just as human as I am. Call me an asshole if you wish. Call me stupid. People hate us because we hipcritically claim to support human rights and democratic ideals when what we really mean is this... "All Americans need access to basic human dignity and if there are enough table scraps left over to make sure a few other people do alright, first dibs go to those who look most like our european ancestors. Everyone else can go fuck themselves. If they don't like it, too bad. When their country becomes the sole superpower, they can get theirs." Well, thats the approach they are taking, and we call them assholes. They figure if we don't really mean those idealistic things we preach, why should they give a shit about following our rules of exclusion. Would you feel any different if it was your family that was starving? If you call me unpatriotic for feeling that way, that is no different than me believing bigotry plays a part in your attitude. We could call each other whatever names we wanted. The truth is the truth. Americans are arrogant and believe they have rights based on the Constitution and no one else has any claim to those rights. The plain fact is that those rights were claimed from the beginning as inherent to all men. The Constitution enshrines them as the law of our land, but does not limit others claims to those same basic rights. If you think only Americans have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you are a bigot and an arrogant ass. My calling you or not calling you such does not alter the basic facts at all.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Democrats deserve shit, not because they don't "protect our borders", but because they protect their re-election war chests by parroting the lies of greedy bastards.

And they differ from the Republicans how, exactly?

I would hope your anger and indignation extends to BOTH side of the single coin we call a "two-party system".

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: Scribbler1 And they differ from the Republicans how, exactly? I would hope your anger and indignation extends to BOTH side of the single coin we call a "two-party system".

Oh, most definitly. At least the democrats have some level of soul. The Rebublicans don't even have enough shame to pretend they don't have contempt for individual rights.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: bishop i don't have a problem if the enter the country through legal means, but i have no interest in extending any services or amnesty towards ILLEGAL immigrants. and, i have absolutely no xenophobic or racist motives behind my opposition to ILLEGAL immigrants. you can label me a bigot if you like (which would be quite the ignorant move), but if you immigrate into this country outside of the legal process (like being smuggled in on a truck), then you most certainly ARE an illegal immigrant despite this proletariat rhetoric you're preaching.

Yeah I agree. It's not about racism. It's about our laws. I am just as against illegal immigration as I am about any other crimb. We have laws in this nation and if you want to come here you should respect them. Illegal immigrants start off by braking the law.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: lsbskins1 I've been away for a while. Look, my position is this. Everyone in Mexico is just as human as I am. People in Panama and any other nation to our south are just as human as I am. Call me an asshole if you wish. Call me stupid. People hate us because we hipcritically claim to support human rights and democratic ideals when what we really mean is this... "All Americans need access to basic human dignity and if there are enough table scraps left over to make sure a few other people do alright, first dibs go to those who look most like our european ancestors. Everyone else can go fuck themselves. If they don't like it, too bad. When their country becomes the sole superpower, they can get theirs." Well, thats the approach they are taking, and we call them assholes. They figure if we don't really mean those idealistic things we preach, why should they give a shit about following our rules of exclusion. Would you feel any different if it was your family that was starving? If you call me unpatriotic for feeling that way, that is no different than me believing bigotry plays a part in your attitude. We could call each other whatever names we wanted. The truth is the truth. Americans are arrogant and believe they have rights based on the Constitution and no one else has any claim to those rights. The plain fact is that those rights were claimed from the beginning as inherent to all men. The Constitution enshrines them as the law of our land, but does not limit others claims to those same basic rights. If you think only Americans have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you are a bigot and an arrogant ass. My calling you or not calling you such does not alter the basic facts at all.

No body said that immigrants can't come here. All were are asking is that they do it legally. The constitution extends only to Americans. If people want liberty and the pursuit of happiness they should either create a similar document in their own country or come here legally. The biggest obstacle to basic human rights is government. Everybody keep criticizing America but nobody is talking about these repressive governments that deny it's people the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness and force them to come here.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Aquietguy1 No body said that immigrants can't come here. All were are asking is that they do it legally. The constitution extends only to Americans. If people want liberty and the pursuit of happiness they should either create a similar document in their own country or come here legally. The biggest obstacle to basic human rights is government. Everybody keep criticizing America but nobody is talking about these repressive governments that deny it's people the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness and force them to come here.

As it says in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

This also, and very obviously means that WE are not in a position to GRANT these freedoms or that they only exist in the United States. They must decide what level of freedom they want, and then go about making it happen where THEY live.
Not to use Chavez as an example, but regardless of how effective he is/isn't he DID mobilize that country's poor. The Mexicans can do the same.