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Suburbanite · Apr 13, 2004, 04:05 am

This is an issue I am supprised no one has brought up. Currently there are several people awaiting execution from Iraqis unless their respective countries back out. I think this puts us in a very hard place, but it needs to be talked about. Instead of voicing my own opionions on the issue, I'll let other people do that. It is horrible, no matter how you look at it, and I hope for the best.
Incase you don't know

PatrickHenry · Apr 13, 2004, 04:14 am

It's asymmetrical warfare. If you can't whip the other guys military, you go for the soft targets. Man, I'm glad I didn't go to Iraq on some 'humanitarian' mission or for big construction wages or whatever.
Being a prisoner of those guys would really, really suck!

Osborn F Enready · Apr 13, 2004, 04:16 am

Very, very sad. I think this only shows that the current action is not taking into effect lessons learned. The hearts and minds of the people, are the only way to remove the recruitment of more against insurgence. When Saddam said America feared another Vietnam War, he had much more idea of what he spoke as we now see. We have no way now, to win the hearts and minds of the people, nor will we as long as we remain near the top of the chain in influencing power in Iraq. I just can't see what people do not understand about guerilla warfare, and its connection to what this administration calls terrorism. Mao Tse Tung, and many others wrote about it. We learned the hard way in Vietnam, and we did learn, but weren't allowed to win by the politicians. Once again, the people act as pawns to the powers that be.

PatrickHenry · Apr 13, 2004, 04:54 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Osborn F Enready,)
We learned the hard way in Vietnam, and we did learn, but weren't allowed to win by the politicians. Once again, the people act as pawns to the powers that be.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I hope you mean something different from the standard rhetoric on 'Nam here.

25 year CIA decorated veteran Ralph McGehee's CIA expose book, Deadly Deceits is clear that Vietnam was a hopeless military situation, precisely because the Pentagon never got the picture...For a synopsis of Deadly Deceits look here
http://home1.gte.net/res0k62m/mcgehee.htm

Here's a little quote:
QUOTE "The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. It is the covert action arm of the President's foreign policy advisers. In that capacity it overthrows or supports foreign governments while reporting "intelligence" justifying those activities. (McGehee says he has never once seen a CIA official tell the truth to Congress. Instead comes a steady stream of lies. - ed.) It shapes its intelligence, even in such critical areas as Soviet nuclear weapon capability, to support presidential policy. Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target of its lies.

"As noted in the Church Committee's final report, the Agency's task is to develop an international anti-communist ideology. The CIA then links every egalitarian (which means "all men are created equal" - ed.) political movement to the scourge of international communism. This then prepares the American people and many in the world community for the second stage, the destruction of those movements. For egalitarianism is the enemy and it must not be allowed to exist."
END QUOTE

McGehee called for the CIA's abolition in Deadly Deceits, describing it as an unsalvageable organization.

What is happening in Iraq is classic guerilla warfare. It's gonna get worse...

Mia · Apr 13, 2004, 05:02 am

It was pointed out to me that none of us will ever understand the minds of Arabs until we are occupied by one people after another.

We promised to hand over power to Iraqi's. We haven't done so. We didn't even let them put Saddam on trial themselves as we promised. We are not rebuilding so much as tapping oil. They want us out of their country!

BTW, America won it's independance through what was then considered to be guilla warfare. There were rules of engagement that we threw out the window. We did terrorist acts to gain our freedom.

Suburbanite · Apr 14, 2004, 12:28 am

I remember the promise to hand Iraq over to an established Democracy is set for June, and that’s the only date it has been set for. These newer attacks are definitely designed to disrupt that. If we leave now, Iraq becomes like Afghanistan where Occultic Clans of Muslims massacre each other in the thousands to gain control and establish a Dictatorship. They don't want us out, that a fallacy, most don't want us there, and want to get rid of us, but they all understand that without us there right now life would be a lot harder. Women are Doctors in Iraq now. That alone to me shows something is being done right. Think about that, Women as Doctors, it is amazing. These Tribes currently attacking American Soldiers are no longer Saddam Loyalists but other would-be dictators. I can’t imagine you want that Mia?

Does anyone think America should meet these demands?

Suburbanite · Apr 14, 2004, 12:49 am

Yea, what Spain did was weak, but then again, who really looks at Spain as strong?

Suburbanite · Apr 14, 2004, 12:58 am

Well, you can't change the time of an election!

Apr 14, 2004, 02:19 am

Yes you can change the time. It could of been delayed.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
Yea, what Spain did was weak, but then again, who really looks at Spain as strong?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The fact we are what, the 8th largest economy in the world?

I'm disgusted that my people had to vote into the corruption party, known as the socialists.

PatrickHenry · Apr 14, 2004, 02:24 am

Sir, you have justified the atrocities in Falluja by your own barbaric statements:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AlecBaldwin666,)
It's part of warfare. we will cut their nuts off and shove it down their throats as a response
Some people like them just need killing.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Terror is evil, no matter if the person is an Arab civilian or a coaliton trooper with a broken conscience.

Suburbanite · Apr 14, 2004, 02:29 am

Yea, too many Conservatives make this a religious or ethnic thing.

Apr 14, 2004, 02:31 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
Yea, too many Conservatives make this a religious or ethnic thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No actually, the socialists in my country are downright stupid and do not know how to operate a government to fight against terrorism. And the Aznar government was the best government we ever had.

Suburbanite · Apr 14, 2004, 02:33 am

Alright.

Mia · Apr 14, 2004, 09:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
I remember the promise to hand Iraq over to an established Democracy is set for June, and that’s the only date it has been set for. These newer attacks are definitely designed to disrupt that. If we leave now, Iraq becomes like Afghanistan where Occultic Clans of Muslims massacre each other in the thousands to gain control and establish a Dictatorship. They don't want us out, that a fallacy, most don't want us there, and want to get rid of us, but they all understand that without us there right now life would be a lot harder. Women are Doctors in Iraq now. That alone to me shows something is being done right. Think about that, Women as Doctors, it is amazing. These Tribes currently attacking American Soldiers are no longer Saddam Loyalists but other would-be dictators. I can’t imagine you want that Mia?

Does anyone think America should meet these demands?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Not at all - we have to stay, no doubt about it. I'm just saying how some of them look at it.

Women were doctors in Iraq before we came, though. FYI

Apr 13, 2004, 04:14 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	It's asymmetrical warfare. If you can't whip the other guys military, you go for the soft targets. Man, I'm glad I didn't go to Iraq on some 'humanitarian' mission or for big construction wages or whatever. Being a prisoner of those guys would really, really suck! "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Apr 13, 2004, 04:16 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Very, very sad. I think this only shows that the current action is not taking into effect lessons learned. The hearts and minds of the people, are the only way to remove the recruitment of more against insurgence. When Saddam said America feared another Vietnam War, he had much more idea of what he spoke as we now see. We have no way now, to win the hearts and minds of the people, nor will we as long as we remain near the top of the chain in influencing power in Iraq. I just can't see what people do not understand about guerilla warfare, and its connection to what this administration calls terrorism. Mao Tse Tung, and many others wrote about it. We learned the hard way in Vietnam, and we did learn, but weren't allowed to win by the politicians. Once again, the people act as pawns to the powers that be. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Apr 13, 2004, 04:54 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Osborn F Enready,) We learned the hard way in Vietnam, and we did learn, but weren't allowed to win by the politicians. Once again, the people act as pawns to the powers that be.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I hope you mean something different from the standard rhetoric on 'Nam here. 25 year CIA decorated veteran Ralph McGehee's CIA expose book, Deadly Deceits is clear that Vietnam was a hopeless military situation, precisely because the Pentagon never got the picture...For a synopsis of Deadly Deceits look here http://home1.gte.net/res0k62m/mcgehee.htm Here's a little quote: QUOTE "The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. It is the covert action arm of the President's foreign policy advisers. In that capacity it overthrows or supports foreign governments while reporting "intelligence" justifying those activities. (McGehee says he has never once seen a CIA official tell the truth to Congress. Instead comes a steady stream of lies. - ed.) It shapes its intelligence, even in such critical areas as Soviet nuclear weapon capability, to support presidential policy. Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target of its lies. "As noted in the Church Committee's final report, the Agency's task is to develop an international anti-communist ideology. The CIA then links every egalitarian (which means "all men are created equal" - ed.) political movement to the scourge of international communism. This then prepares the American people and many in the world community for the second stage, the destruction of those movements. For egalitarianism is the enemy and it must not be allowed to exist." END QUOTE McGehee called for the CIA's abolition in Deadly Deceits, describing it as an unsalvageable organization. What is happening in Iraq is classic guerilla warfare. It's gonna get worse... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Apr 13, 2004, 05:02 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	It was pointed out to me that none of us will ever understand the minds of Arabs until we are occupied by one people after another. We promised to hand over power to Iraqi's. We haven't done so. We didn't even let them put Saddam on trial themselves as we promised. We are not rebuilding so much as tapping oil. They want us out of their country! BTW, America won it's independance through what was then considered to be guilla warfare. There were rules of engagement that we threw out the window. We did terrorist acts to gain our freedom. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 14, 2004, 02:19 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	Yes you can change the time. It could of been delayed. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Yea, what Spain did was weak, but then again, who really looks at Spain as strong?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The fact we are what, the 8th largest economy in the world? I'm disgusted that my people had to vote into the corruption party, known as the socialists.

Apr 13, 2004, 04:05 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	This is an issue I am supprised no one has brought up. Currently there are several people awaiting execution from Iraqis unless their respective countries back out. I think this puts us in a very hard place, but it needs to be talked about. Instead of voicing my own opionions on the issue, I'll let other people do that. It is horrible, no matter how you look at it, and I hope for the best. Incase you don't know

Apr 14, 2004, 12:28 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I remember the promise to hand Iraq over to an established Democracy is set for June, and that’s the only date it has been set for. These newer attacks are definitely designed to disrupt that. If we leave now, Iraq becomes like Afghanistan where Occultic Clans of Muslims massacre each other in the thousands to gain control and establish a Dictatorship. They don't want us out, that a fallacy, most don't want us there, and want to get rid of us, but they all understand that without us there right now life would be a lot harder. Women are Doctors in Iraq now. That alone to me shows something is being done right. Think about that, Women as Doctors, it is amazing. These Tribes currently attacking American Soldiers are no longer Saddam Loyalists but other would-be dictators. I can’t imagine you want that Mia? Does anyone think America should meet these demands?

Apr 14, 2004, 12:49 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Yea, what Spain did was weak, but then again, who really looks at Spain as strong?

Apr 14, 2004, 12:58 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Well, you can't change the time of an election!

Apr 14, 2004, 02:24 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	Sir, you have justified the atrocities in Falluja by your own barbaric statements: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AlecBaldwin666,) It's part of warfare. we will cut their nuts off and shove it down their throats as a response Some people like them just need killing. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Terror is evil, no matter if the person is an Arab civilian or a coaliton trooper with a broken conscience. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Apr 14, 2004, 02:29 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Yea, too many Conservatives make this a religious or ethnic thing.

Apr 14, 2004, 02:31 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Yea, too many Conservatives make this a religious or ethnic thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No actually, the socialists in my country are downright stupid and do not know how to operate a government to fight against terrorism. And the Aznar government was the best government we ever had.

Apr 14, 2004, 02:33 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Alright.

Apr 14, 2004, 09:02 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) I remember the promise to hand Iraq over to an established Democracy is set for June, and that’s the only date it has been set for. These newer attacks are definitely designed to disrupt that. If we leave now, Iraq becomes like Afghanistan where Occultic Clans of Muslims massacre each other in the thousands to gain control and establish a Dictatorship. They don't want us out, that a fallacy, most don't want us there, and want to get rid of us, but they all understand that without us there right now life would be a lot harder. Women are Doctors in Iraq now. That alone to me shows something is being done right. Think about that, Women as Doctors, it is amazing. These Tribes currently attacking American Soldiers are no longer Saddam Loyalists but other would-be dictators. I can’t imagine you want that Mia? Does anyone think America should meet these demands?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Not at all - we have to stay, no doubt about it. I'm just saying how some of them look at it. Women were doctors in Iraq before we came, though. FYI "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali