Carter blasts Bush

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mikeyp,)

I am not going to argue with you. You got brain washed somewhere. I have not figured out who is worse. The ex-gays or the gay republicans. Both are full of shit. Your only 18, you weren't there in the Carter years. Some day you will wake up and realize what a piece of crap George Bush is; and you sold your own people down the river. We need a term for your type. The black people call them Uncle Toms. Your simply a sell out...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

So my age is like... well... you are basically saying: "you are useless.. you should shut up because you are too young. You can't comment on issues because you are too young." Brain washed? Excuse me? I came up with my own views. I go to a overwhelmingly liberal university (www.csun.edu)... I often get cheered for standing up for my views. I'm nonetheless friends with all my professors. You are nesciently insulting me. Calling me a sell out? What for? Because I don't have the exact same political views as you? Whatever happened to tolerance.. to me you are the sell out. Why are you insulting me? I am a gay republican, I'm not full of it. I have my opinions. If you have a problem with my opinions, why don't you debate with me in a civilized way? I didn't insult you. Additionally my age has nothing to do with this.

If you can't debate without insulting, you shouldn't be here. As Sean said, please read the etiquette. I'm trying to follow up on it better even with my fiery passion for some subjects.

[dotcoma]

The CIA used to send operatives into Cuba to poison baby formula with cement powder. That's not terrorism. That's freedom. Pat Henry, don't you get it?

[Osborn F Enready]

Alec, and others that believe the C.I.A. is essential, efficient, or worthy of creation or funding;

How much have you people read, or studied the actions of the C.I.A.?
My only guess could be none. What information can be found, is edited for content, and the truth about them only comes out in investigative journalist reports. If you knew any of these, you would know how corrupt they are and that they are the main staple of corruption in the system. They are the tool that allows things to happen without knowledge, or permission of the current administrations in office. They help to cause insurection in foreign countries, and they are influence peddlers without permission of taxpayers dollars. They have been proven guilty of smuggling drugs, and using drug money for covert operations. They are probably the biggest, most powerful form of corruption any society has ever created, beating hands down the Nazi SS or the KGB.

You have no basis for what you speak, and to prove it, I will ask you to provide some proof please.

Osborn, why don't you provide some proof then?

[PatrickHenry]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
The CIA used to send operatives into Cuba to poison baby formula with cement powder. That's not terrorism. That's freedom. Pat Henry, don't you get it?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Honestly, I don't get it roxdog. There's oceans of slime for the CIA private hog wallow, but I've never seen an article on poison baby formula. To my knowledge they are not mindlessly evil. Usually there's a purpose to their killing and lies. They seek to manipulate public opinion, destabilize governments that are disliked, arm and train friendly tyrants, assassinate foreign leaders, and perhaps worst of all are a permeating propaganda network in the mainstream US news media. Lotta drug running too, but everybody wants to make a little money.

I can't figure how poisoning Cuban formula would undermine Castro's regime, admittedly a long time CIA goal.

But what does all this have to do with Carter blasting Bush? The thread, the thread:

IMHO, Bush's record on the environment and war is so bad that I guess Carter just couldn't hold his (generally low key) tongue. Too bad the GOP is so unified nowadays that you don't hear anything from any one over there. Somebody in that party has to have some integrity, right? Why don't they speak up? Oh, wait a minute. I'm remembering a name...James Jeffords. Yeah, they made an example of him for daring to speak freely. Free speech just isn't a Republican thing, I guess...

[Osborn F Enready]

Surely I can, and will.

Did you watch the Iran-Contra hearings with Oliver North? They are still viewable, I am sure, probably on C-Spans web site. Regardless, it was PROVEN in those hearings the actions of C.I.A. conspiracy, mis-use of funding and intent.

You can also view this;
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/qt_hi.html

And you can look here;
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/corrupt.htm

Have you never heard of C.I.A. involvement in Vietnam??

There are a thousand books written on their exploits, and unreleased intelligence.

There are also these books;
Killing Pablo, by Mark Bowden (Columbia, and the Drug War)

Black Hawk Down, by Mark Bowden (Somalia, the real facts)

Ambush at Ruby Ridge, by Alan W. Bock (various references)

There are tons, upon tons more, and even some from Federal Sites, though much of that that has been released to the public is still edited for content.

This is enough to warrant the accusations by far though.

I'm not saying the involvement in Iran or Vietnam was good. But that certainly does not make the organization evil. People make mistakes. Killing Pablo? Wake up, Pablo Escobar shot down civilian planes.. blew up bombs and killed the brother of one of my Colombian friends in a car bomb. He's better dead. And the Uribe Government is now winning against the drug lords. Black Hawk Down? That is more about capturing Aideed, who died later at any rate. The mission in Somalia was about humanitarian reasons.

This is not enough to warrant anything, as you associate one thing with another. I just don't see how you make such broad associations. Certainly people in the CIA have made mistakes supporting the wrong people, but that does not make these accusations true for the entire organization.

[Osborn F Enready]

The point your missing is the lack of accountability, or the ability to track their actions by the acting administration. You also neglect to notice the fact they operate outside of their boundaries OFTEN, and are NEVER severely punished, or analyzed for their effectiveness.

You operate on the BELIEF your government is looking out for your best intrest, yet you cannot cite any information providing positives for keeping the agency intact as is.

Facts talk, opinion walks. Whether or NOT you agree with the removal of Escobar, analyze how the operation was run, and the way it was carried out. Once again you imply ANY MEANS justifies the end. You are wrong. The military exists to protect, the C.I.A. is meant to minimize and monitor all threats to the U.S. Can you cite some examples of this? In Columbia, we were hated by most, though only some hated Escobar. We wouldn't act to help Columbia, until it suited our needs specifically, and then only under the agreements that the U.S. dictated, which were not followed by the U.S. teams put in place. There was literally a "War between the agencies" competing for who could provide the most information, regardless of how or what method it was obtained. We turned a blind eye to the killing of civillians when it suited us, as they killed members of pablos family, friends, business aquaintances, lawyers, political associations in the pursuit of Pablo.

The whole point being, we go into action under noble intentions (at least that is what is claimed to the American people) while the agencies act on behalf of themselves, and their perception of the best intrest of America, or their own agenda.

The C.I.A. was involved in drugs in Vietnam, Columbia, Afghanistan and many other countries. All AGAINST U.S. LAW, or statements of intent.

Just what is needed to prove corruption sir?

To parody your conception of what is needed, ask yourself what a citizen could get away with, regardless of wealth, compared to the ability of the C.I.A. before being punished harshly for their actions?

This is like talking to a tape called playing "leftist propaganda" and "anti-american latin american political nonsense". You sir, should read "The Perfect Guide to the Latin American Idiot" for the facts, written by Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza, Carlos Alberto Montaner, and Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

By the way, Escobar was hated in Colombia outside of Medillin.

and you can't provide any evidence to disprove me.

[Osborn F Enready]

Uhhh regardless, did you understand the POINT!

AT NO TIME, UNLESS THE THREAT OF NUCLEAR WAR OR THE THREAT ON ALL HUMANITY, do the rules change to "anything goes" to meet our goals. Since when is there justified genocide? Since when is it legal to violate all acts of the Constitution and International Law in pursuit of a felon?

Oh, that would be since 1933, when they removed the power from we the people, but you wont acknowedge that fact, which PROVES the C.I.A. is operating under directive that directly disputes every foundation the United States was built on.

Argue the point, not the semantics.

This is like listening to a tape recording. No matter what you say, it repeats the same thing over and over again. But this tape recording changes words around.. very interesting.

[Osborn F Enready]

Once again Giancarlo, address the points sir.

I said: Alec, and others that believe the C.I.A. is essential, efficient, or worthy of creation or funding;

How much have you people read, or studied the actions of the C.I.A.?
My only guess could be none. What information can be found, is edited for content, and the truth about them only comes out in investigative journalist reports. If you knew any of these, you would know how corrupt they are and that they are the main staple of corruption in the system. They are the tool that allows things to happen without knowledge, or permission of the current administrations in office. They help to cause insurection in foreign countries, and they are influence peddlers without permission of taxpayers dollars. They have been proven guilty of smuggling drugs, and using drug money for covert operations. They are probably the biggest, most powerful form of corruption any society has ever created, beating hands down the Nazi SS or the KGB.

You have no basis for what you speak, and to prove it, I will ask you to provide some proof please.


Giancarlo said: Osborn, why don't you provide some proof then?

I said:Surely I can, and will.

Did you watch the Iran-Contra hearings with Oliver North? They are still viewable, I am sure, probably on C-Spans web site. Regardless, it was PROVEN in those hearings the actions of C.I.A. conspiracy, mis-use of funding and intent.

You can also view this;
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/qt_hi.html

And you can look here;
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/corrupt.htm

Have you never heard of C.I.A. involvement in Vietnam??

There are a thousand books written on their exploits, and unreleased intelligence.

There are also these books;
Killing Pablo, by Mark Bowden (Columbia, and the Drug War)

Black Hawk Down, by Mark Bowden (Somalia, the real facts)

Ambush at Ruby Ridge, by Alan W. Bock (various references)

There are tons, upon tons more, and even some from Federal Sites, though much of that that has been released to the public is still edited for content.

This is enough to warrant the accusations by far though.

Giancarlo said: This is not enough to warrant anything, as you associate one thing with another. I just don't see how you make such broad associations. Certainly people in the CIA have made mistakes supporting the wrong people, but that does not make these accusations true for the entire organization.

I said:The point your missing is the lack of accountability, or the ability to track their actions by the acting administration. You also neglect to notice the fact they operate outside of their boundaries OFTEN, and are NEVER severely punished, or analyzed for their effectiveness.

You operate on the BELIEF your government is looking out for your best intrest, yet you cannot cite any information providing positives for keeping the agency intact as is.

Facts talk, opinion walks. Whether or NOT you agree with the removal of Escobar, analyze how the operation was run, and the way it was carried out. Once again you imply ANY MEANS justifies the end. You are wrong. The military exists to protect, the C.I.A. is meant to minimize and monitor all threats to the U.S. Can you cite some examples of this? In Columbia, we were hated by most, though only some hated Escobar. We wouldn't act to help Columbia, until it suited our needs specifically, and then only under the agreements that the U.S. dictated, which were not followed by the U.S. teams put in place. There was literally a "War between the agencies" competing for who could provide the most information, regardless of how or what method it was obtained. We turned a blind eye to the killing of civillians when it suited us, as they killed members of pablos family, friends, business aquaintances, lawyers, political associations in the pursuit of Pablo.

The whole point being, we go into action under noble intentions (at least that is what is claimed to the American people) while the agencies act on behalf of themselves, and their perception of the best intrest of America, or their own agenda.

The C.I.A. was involved in drugs in Vietnam, Columbia, Afghanistan and many other countries. All AGAINST U.S. LAW, or statements of intent.

Just what is needed to prove corruption sir?

To parody your conception of what is needed, ask yourself what a citizen could get away with, regardless of wealth, compared to the ability of the C.I.A. before being punished harshly for their actions?

Giancarlo said: This is like talking to a tape called playing "leftist propaganda" and "anti-american latin american political nonsense". You sir, should read "The Perfect Guide to the Latin American Idiot" for the facts, written by Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza, Carlos Alberto Montaner, and Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

By the way, Escobar was hated in Colombia outside of Medillin.

and you can't provide any evidence to disprove me.

I said: Uhhh regardless, did you understand the POINT!

AT NO TIME, UNLESS THE THREAT OF NUCLEAR WAR OR THE THREAT ON ALL HUMANITY, do the rules change to "anything goes" to meet our goals. Since when is there justified genocide? Since when is it legal to violate all acts of the Constitution and International Law in pursuit of a felon?

Oh, that would be since 1933, when they removed the power from we the people, but you wont acknowedge that fact, which PROVES the C.I.A. is operating under directive that directly disputes every foundation the United States was built on.

Argue the point, not the semantics.


Once again, are you going to debate facts, and cite specific points, or dismiss any disagreement as leftist propaganda? I have addressed specifically my point, many may say a little long windedly, but still I have addressed what you asked. Care to rebutt, other than insulting me with claims of propaganda? You are showing your ignorance of the topic you speak on, sir.

Tape recording. Maybe if you actually present real evidence, I'll believe you. I'm not talking about opinionated books.

[Mia]

So what would constitite real evidence for you? If you were in a jury box, would you need a video tape of the murder before convicting? You've not addressed anything offered.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
So what would constitite real evidence for you? If you were in a jury box, would you need a video tape of the murder before convicting? You've not addressed anything offered.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

DNA evidence... circumstancial may work but additional evidence is required.

His case is totally circumstancial and fallacious.

[Mia]

you haven't proven that, so I don't believe you.

[Mia]

Wait - I have some evidence for you. Get on a plane and go to Syria. Take a look at the weapons they captured from the Muslim Brotherhood, a fundamentalist terrorist group that tried to overthrow the government. They are US weapons.

Another one of our covert operations.

[dotcoma]

Hey, anyone could traffic drugs to fund contras by accident. Oh look, a billion dollars worth of coke on my private cargo plane siezed by the Mexican Feds and then mysteriously disappeared!!! It's all a big misunderstanding. Global government is good. Give your guns to the Furor. He will protect you. Just look at history. Goldstein is still out "there", you know.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
Wait - I have some evidence for you. Get on a plane and go to Syria. Take a look at the weapons they captured from the Muslim Brotherhood, a fundamentalist terrorist group that tried to overthrow the government. They are US weapons.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

US weapons can be manufactured underground. Afterall Clinton sold the Syrians weapons. Everybody knows that. I'm not for that.

[PatrickHenry]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Giancarlo,)

US weapons can be manufactured underground. Afterall Clinton sold the Syrians weapons. Everybody knows that. I'm not for that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Sources? I like it when you bother to back up your statements...