Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Section 8 · Sep 22, 2003, 10:52 pm

An interesting commentary on the divide of socialism. Note that this was written in 1929 so some of the information might be out dated.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archi.../whatis_13.html

This goes out to Adams who has not reformed, and I believe is planning to educate others in Socialism and Communism. Bravo!

Have fun
Shalom

G. Adams · Sep 23, 2003, 06:16 pm

There is not a chance in hell I'll reform, but I have been playing with a new idea as how best to bring socialism about. Actually it came out of some arguments on this board with Geoff, regarding feudal states in a global economy. Perhaps, instead of fighting now against Capitalism, which is just an era of history and improvement over feudalism, communists and socialists should be fighting to turn these feudal states to capitalism. After all, a socialist revolution MUST be world wide, and socialist revolutions are only possible in developed capitalist societies. It would also have the advantage of introducing human rights into countries previously inexperienced. This would mean that in a revolution an oppurtunist couldn't take power under a red flag but really doing it for himself.

The only problem with all this, and does gall me slightly, is that to try and advance these ideas I'm going to have to go LibDem. Apart from PR, the Euro (and europe generally) and Education, LibDems are as bad as the others, but at least would be open to my ideas, plus some others to be kept under wraps till I'm up the ranks. At least, in terms of actual politiking, LibDems have a good shot at reaching government, unlike the Socialist Alliance boat I'm on now were the SWP are trying to capsize us.

fedfem · Sep 30, 2003, 02:26 pm

I think the Hard-core Socialists need to work with the middle class. Communism and Socialism are buzz words for "taking away what you've worked for" thanks to the propaganda machine. I personally am a socialist at heart but being middle-aged and middle-class, I have accumulated property. How can you convince someone like me to support you? Can you assure me my children will have what they need in the future? Here in the US, I see socialism work at a local level. The broader the scope or application the less successful it is. How can it become worldwide? The Manifesto has to be rewritten and adapted to the current reality.

Geoff332 · Sep 30, 2003, 08:07 pm

Quote:

Actually it came out of some arguments on this board with Geoff, regarding feudal states in a global economy. Perhaps, instead of fighting now against Capitalism, which is just an era of history and improvement over feudalism, communists and socialists should be fighting to turn these feudal states to capitalism.

I count that as a victory.

I'm not really an apologist for capitalism (or for socialism, communism or anything else for that matter) -- which is what infuriates some people. I make an effort to understand both systems, in terms of both their essential features and the reality of them when people have tried to put them into practice.

One of the reasons we haven't seen anything like a communist revolution in large established capitalist nations is because they practice an impure form of capitalism. The very weaknesses that Marx identified in capitalism are off-set -- by welfare, by (partial) democratisation of liesure, education and political power; by widely distributed capital participation; by technological advances. I'm not suggesting that any or all of these things are perfect or that we won't see a revolution of some form in the future. But within most developed nations, a lot of people are in positions like the one fedFem describes -- where they perceive that they will lose out under a socialist or communist regiem.

Sep 23, 2003, 06:16 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	There is not a chance in hell I'll reform, but I have been playing with a new idea as how best to bring socialism about. Actually it came out of some arguments on this board with Geoff, regarding feudal states in a global economy. Perhaps, instead of fighting now against Capitalism, which is just an era of history and improvement over feudalism, communists and socialists should be fighting to turn these feudal states to capitalism. After all, a socialist revolution MUST be world wide, and socialist revolutions are only possible in developed capitalist societies. It would also have the advantage of introducing human rights into countries previously inexperienced. This would mean that in a revolution an oppurtunist couldn't take power under a red flag but really doing it for himself. The only problem with all this, and does gall me slightly, is that to try and advance these ideas I'm going to have to go LibDem. Apart from PR, the Euro (and europe generally) and Education, LibDems are as bad as the others, but at least would be open to my ideas, plus some others to be kept under wraps till I'm up the ranks. At least, in terms of actual politiking, LibDems have a good shot at reaching government, unlike the Socialist Alliance boat I'm on now were the SWP are trying to capsize us. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Sep 22, 2003, 10:52 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	An interesting commentary on the divide of socialism. Note that this was written in 1929 so some of the information might be out dated. http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archi.../whatis_13.html This goes out to Adams who has not reformed, and I believe is planning to educate others in Socialism and Communism. Bravo! Have fun Shalom

Sep 30, 2003, 02:26 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	I think the Hard-core Socialists need to work with the middle class. Communism and Socialism are buzz words for "taking away what you've worked for" thanks to the propaganda machine. I personally am a socialist at heart but being middle-aged and middle-class, I have accumulated property. How can you convince someone like me to support you? Can you assure me my children will have what they need in the future? Here in the US, I see socialism work at a local level. The broader the scope or application the less successful it is. How can it become worldwide? The Manifesto has to be rewritten and adapted to the current reality.