Kerry to push for Nuclear Option

[Ceyaotl]

Quote by: Apeman81 Sure! Let's make History and filibuster a Judge's nomination. You won't see it happen.

We will just Nuke that option!!!

[Boetie]

Mr Vicchio posts: Do you know what Alito's position REALLY is on limited roles of Congress, the courts, and the "expansive role" of the Preisdent?

Alito is a stupid idiot whom doesn't know a thing about the United States Constitution. He was picked to stack the court and swing it to the right. Something no president has been so low to do except Bush Jr, there is no bar to low for junior.

Here is how stupid Alito will rule:

Alito: Now the president may be right in how he reads the Constitution. But he may also be wrong. And if he is wrong, who is there to tell him so? And if there is no one, then the president of course if free to pursue his course (ie illegal wiretapping) of erroneous interpretations. What then becomes of our constitutionual form of government? Because in the views of those other judges, whom see this nation's constitutional form of government is in serious jeporady if the president any president, is to say that the Constitution means what he says it does, and that there is no one, not even the Supreme Court, to tell him otherwise.

In this case I rule the president is above the law. This of course will change when someone from another party becomes president.

Alito ruling in favor of a dictatorship ruling against the constitution all the time.

[Apeman81]

OK. The kindergarten time in the Senate has ended and the votes will be taken and tallied for Judge Alito.

[underbear1]

Lieberman and all the cowardly gang of 14 Democrats voting aye on cloture, I spit this at you,



GO ( CHENEY) YOURSELVES!

[tilefish]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Just read over on the Drudge Report that John Kerry is going to call for a filibuster of Judge Alito. This is mostly due to serious pressure on the Democrats by thier special interest groups to act, since the DNC failed, and I might add miserably, in the hearings with Alito. They are demanding a filibuster, because they fear, absolutely fear a Supreme Court that doesn't have the type of Judges they require. Ruth Bader Ginsberg for example. Alito would never say, look to foriegn law to decide a case, this bothers these groups. He might, Gasp! Rule against Roe Vs. Wade as bad law. And as we know, 45 Million Abortions in 30 years isn't enough, so they are against the man. Kerry is not acting on any real principle, he's just trying to curry favor with the rabid base, if he were to somehow cobble the 41 votes needed to bring up a Filibuster, all that would happen is the GOP pushing the nuclear button. If they don't get the 41 votes together, he still wins with the rabid base by showing "strong leadership" in doing what they demand he do. This is gonna be funny to watch.

Enjoy your majority while it lasts the mid term elections are coming and with Bush floundering with 42 % approval and a "Booming economy" that only has given a financial gain to only the top 5% and an obvious disaster in Iraq. I expect Alito to get approval. I say let RoeVWade run its course and let this hand chosen group reverse the laws on abortion. What will the right wing whack jobs have to run on after that. This might be the real wake up call that this country needs.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: tilefish Enjoy your majority while it lasts the mid term elections are coming and with Bush floundering with 42 % approval and a "Booming economy" that only has given a financial gain to only the top 5% and an obvious disaster in Iraq. I expect Alito to get approval. I say let RoeVWade run its course and let this hand chosen group reverse the laws on abortion. What will the right wing whack jobs have to run on after that. This might be the real wake up call that this country needs.

If Roe v Wade is overturned, you and I and all our fellow citizens will regain our voice in being able to vote whether or not to legalize abortion.

Are you that afraid of how the vote may go?

[tilefish]

Quote by: Apeman81 If Roe v Wade is overturned, you and I and all our fellow citizens will regain our voice in being able to vote whether or not to legalize abortion. Are you that afraid of how the vote may go?

Ape my friend I am not afraid of the vote at all. In fact I believe it will awaken the rest of this country to just how shallow this adiministration is in terms of it concern for the majority in this country. Bring it on!

[underbear1]

I'm not afraid how the fight for a woman's reproductive CHOICE will ultimately be decided. Women will be elected in State legislative races and governors all across America. Women once fooled, will NEVER AGAIN trust male candidates about who has the control over a woman's OWN BODY!
I hate that it will be a state by bloody state battle, and will cost a fortune (watch for Emily's List which seeds women's campaigns to bring in RECORD amounts of donations), and will likely take a few elections to repair the damage of Roe's being overturned. I hope it gives birth (pun intended) to the Third feminist revolution.

btw. Republicans will be the biggest losers after Roe is overturned, they demonstrated for every woman in America to see ,today, THERE ARE NO PRO-CHOICE REPUBLICANS, and never were!

[Apeman81]

Quote by: underbear1 I'm not afraid how the fight for a woman's reproductive CHOICE will ultimately be decided. Women will be elected in State legislative races and governors all across America. Women once fooled, will NEVER AGAIN trust male candidates about who has the control over a woman's OWN BODY! I hate that it will be a state by bloody state battle, and will cost a fortune (watch for Emily's List which seeds women's campaigns to bring in RECORD amounts of donations), and will likely take a few elections to repair the damage of Roe's being overturned. I hope it gives birth (pun intended) to the Third feminist revolution. btw. Republicans will be the biggest losers after Roe is overturned, they demonstrated for every woman in America to see ,today, THERE ARE NO PRO-CHOICE REPUBLICANS, and never were!

WOW! I guess not all the Power should be given to the people!

All women are pro-"choice"? Presumptuous.

No pro-“choice” republicans? Sure there are, Just like there are anti-abortion democrats.

Let the people decide.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Women have a choice, underbear1. They have a choice. I am all for that choice.

It's the choice you claim they have a right too, that ends the life of an innocent that I, and many others have a problem with.

Women have the right to choose NOT to have sex. Sex has this primary function, procreation. They have the choice NOT to procreate. (Don't try to bring up rape, rape is another subject entirely and almost every pro-lifer I know understands that)

You feel that choice to have sex shouldn't have any consequences, and should sex lead to a child that entitles the women to the right to murder the child, she had a willing hand in creating. Sorry, that's evil, that's wrong, and the day will come when that "right" is overturned.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 If Roe v Wade is overturned, you and I and all our fellow citizens will regain our voice in being able to vote whether or not to legalize abortion. Are you that afraid of how the vote may go?

And Texas will return to coathangers and back alley abortions. Now isn't that special?

Hell, if basic rights were simply up to voters we'd never have abolished slavery in parts of the South.

[deedee]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Kerry is not acting on any real principle,

Of course he isn't acting on any real principle.....'flip flops' generally don't.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Coat hangers and backalley abortions....

Let's play statistics and quote games!

MYTH: We need abortion to reduce child abuse. Wanted children will not become abused children. FACT: Abortion has done nothing to reduce child abuse. Actually child abuse increased over 1000% from 1973, the year abortion was legalized throughout the United States, to 1986.

I liked that one.
But to address your fearmongering LIE, here is the whole excerpt.

The Myth of Mass Back-Alley Abortion Deaths* One of the most common arguments abortion advocates make in defense of legal abortion is that making abortion illegal will cause women to go to the "back alleys" and obtain unsafe abortions. They cite how thousands of women died as a result of unsafe abortions before abortion was legalized through the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision. We already know legal abortions are not safe - they can and do cause women to lose their lives and harm women physically and emotionally. So let's address some other issues. Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League, admits his group lied about the number of women who died from illegal abortions when testifying before the Supreme Court in 1972. "We spoke of 5,000 - 10,000 deaths a year.... I confess that I knew the figures were totally false ... it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics?" That claim of thousands of maternal deaths due to illegal abortion doesn't measure up when compared with other statistics. About 50,000 women of child-bearing age die each year -- from all causes combined. To suggest that 10,000 of these deaths were from illegal abortion would make that the cause of one out of every five deaths, or twenty percent. This would have made illegal abortion the leading cause of death among women in that age group. What, then, did cause abortion-related deaths due to illegal abortions? According to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, the legalization of abortion was not responsible for reducing abortion-related deaths. This discovery of antibiotics in the 1940's did that by providing effective treatment for infections. The National Center for Heath Statistics reveals that before 1941, there were over 1,400 abortion-related deaths. Yet after Penicillin became available to control infections, the number of deaths was reduced in the 1950's to approximately 250 per year. By 1966, with abortion still illegal in all states, the number of deaths had dropped steadily to 120. The reason? New and better antibiotics, better surgery and the establishment of intensive care units in hospitals. This was in the face of a rising population. Between 1967 and 1970 sixteen states legalized abortion. In most it was limited, only for rape, incest and severe fetal handicaps or deformities, and when the pregnancy jeopardized the life of the mother (all of which constitute only 5% of the abortion cases today). There were two notable exceptions - California in 1967 and New York in 1970 legalized abortion on demand. Legalizing abortion should have eliminated some deaths related to illegal abortions. That is not the case. In the years from 1963-1969, there were an average of approximately 55 deaths per year due to illegal abortions. In 1970, after this initial wave of laws legalizing abortions, there were 109. Deaths from illegal abortions increased. By the year before the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision allowing legal abortion on demand in all fifty states, the death rate for illegal abortions had fallen to 24 in 1972 (with 25 additional deaths as a result of legal abortions). Now abortion was legal in all fifty states and back alley abortions eliminated with their alleged total of maternal deaths. In 1973 there should have been a sharp drop in abortion-related deaths if abortion advocates were right that legalizing abortion would make abortion safe. Yet abortion-related deaths increased again with 25 deaths resulting from legal abortion in 1973, 26 in 1974 and 29 in 1975. Some have claimed that the number of illegal abortion-related deaths were not reported accurately or underreported. Yet, when a woman was seriously injured by an abortion, she went to another doctor for care. The abortion practitioner was rarely involved at that point. The new doctor in many cases had to attempt to save the mother's life. In cases of maternal death, this new doctor was required to report, and falsification of the death certificate was a felony. Therefore, prior to legalization of abortion, it's safe to say deaths from illegal abortions were rarely covered up. Yet, even if the case can be made that deaths resulting from illegal abortions were underreported, it is equally safe to say that deaths resulting from legal abortions are underreported. In Maryland in 1991, there were four women who died from legal abortions that year. None of the four were reported to the Federal Centers for Disease Control for its statistics. Whereas prior to the legalization of abortion a second doctor, with little or no reason to cover up a death for which he or she was not responsible, was involved in an attempt to save the mother's life; with legalized abortion the abortion practitioner is usually the one attempting to save the mother's life when the abortion threatens her life. Other specific instances help us see how reporting for the number of deaths related to illegal abortions may be low: In 1977 an Ohio doctor noted that while the official statistics showed no abortion-related deaths in Ohio that year, he personally knew of two. If one doctor knew of two cases, how many were there really? Abortion was legalized in California in 1967. According to an article in the Los Angeles Times in 1972, official records showed four legal abortion-related deaths in the entire country from 1967 to 1972. Yet a reporter for that paper uncovered three deaths only in Los Angeles in just one month in 1972. A reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times uncovered 12 legal abortion-related deaths in that city in 1978. The government statistics show only 16 deaths for the entire country in that year. Another important point is that many of the abortion practitioners performing abortions after Roe v. Wade were the same people performing illegal abortions. In the July 1960 edition of the American Journal of Public Health, an article by Dr. Mary Calderon, then medical director of Planned Parenthood, which stated: "90% of illegal abortions are being done by physicians. Call them what you will, abortionists, or anything else, they are still physicians, trained as such; ... They must do a pretty good job if the death rate is as low as it is... Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians." Here is a candid admission that not only are illegal abortions not being done by quack doctors but that the death rate from illegal abortions was "low." This flies in the face of claims of several thousand women losing their lives to illegal abortions and the claim that illegal abortions were performed by quack doctors and not by physicians. As we can see, "Never again" never was. There were not several thousand women losing their lives due to illegal abortions performed by quack doctors. Effective medical treatments helped reduce abortion related deaths and the legalization of abortion never played a significant role (and never will) in affecting the numbers of women who died from legal or illegal abortion-related deaths. That women continue to die from so-called "safe, legal" abortions (perhaps in greater numbers than we know) is a clear indication that abortion is unsafe and hurts women - legal or otherwise.

http://tennesseerighttolife.org/huma..._and_myths.htm

[RickSp]

Mr. V, I never raised the issue of child abuse - you did. And I trust your article from the Tennessee Right to Life zealots not at all.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I know you didn't rick, I just loved that quote.

Fine Rick, why don't you disprove me, YOU brouth the myth of the backalley coat hanger abortions up, I went and countered it, yet you call this Zealotry. You are the one that is blind to anything that counters your beliefs. If you can prove, PROVE that thier claim of 24 Abortion deaths in illegal abortions in 1974, I would love to hear it.

If you can PROVE that

Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League, admits his group lied about the number of women who died from illegal abortions when testifying before the Supreme Court in 1972. "We spoke of 5,000 - 10,000 deaths a year.... I confess that I knew the figures were totally false ... it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics?"

is a lie, let's see it.

Or you can put the big Z on your forehead.

[Samildanach]

Women have the right to choose NOT to have sex. Sex has this primary function, procreation. They have the choice NOT to procreate.

Actually the point may well be moot sooner or later anyway. A lot of women are starting to store eggs in egg banks if not whole ovaries, there is no legislation against it so maybe thats the way around it. Instead of going on the pill for god knows how many years go and get the eggs removed and stored so they can be replaced later. Have as much sex as you can get for twenty years or so then go get knocked up through invitro. No more abortion worries. Its called having your partner and shagging them 2.

Who knows in twenty years there might be no prolifers left due to this technology.

[Boetie]

I made a post above in response to a question regarding Alito and how he will rule in favor of abolishing the concept that the president is limited in powers. Somehow this page turned into a abortion debate.

I think people whom are against abortion, never had sex. I don't mean the biological act of sex. What I mean is, how boring can it get if you have to think all the time, imagine going through a discussion on the pros and cons before you have sex, that would be boring. People against abortion never had sex yet they act like they have.

[Samildanach]

I think people whom are against abortion, never had sex.

Amen to that....to even think you can do without sex is just a ridiculous assertion.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I know you didn't rick, I just loved that quote. Fine Rick, why don't you disprove me, YOU brouth the myth of the backalley coat hanger abortions up, I went and countered it, yet you call this Zealotry. You are the one that is blind to anything that counters your beliefs. If you can prove, PROVE that thier claim of 24 Abortion deaths in illegal abortions in 1974, I would love to hear it. If you can PROVE that is a lie, let's see it. Or you can put the big Z on your forehead.

Lets, see. What are you arguing? That there would no no deaths due to illegal abortions? Is that your argument? Or are you arguing that with improved medical care there would be fewer deaths from illegal abortions?

Abortions were common well before New York decriminalized them in 1970 and Roe made them legal in the rest of the country in 1973. The Alan Guttmacher Institute, which does research on reproductive issues, reports that in 1930 almost 2,700 women died from illegal abortions—and that's just the number who had abortion recorded as their official cause of death. Almost one in 10 low-income women in New York City reported having attempted to end a pregnancy with an illegal abortion, according to one study done in the 1960s. In 1962 alone, almost 1,600 women were treated for incomplete illegal abortions in at Harlem Hospital. And there's plenty of current evidence showing the danger of outlawing the procedure. According to the World Health Organization, an estimated 80,000 women around the world still die each year of complications from illegal abortion.

When There Was No Choice

It is actually funny. You get all worked up over the extremely low probablity event of a death row inmate killing a guard (for which you never provided any data, or even a single example), but you clearly don't give a damn over the deaths of women.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp And Texas will return to coathangers and back alley abortions. Now isn't that special? Hell, if basic rights were simply up to voters we'd never have abolished slavery in parts of the South.

Dred Scott. Some USSC decisions need to be revisited Roe is one of them.

You may be interested to discover that the abolition of slavery began with laws passed at the state level, not the federal level.

Ceding the powers that belongs in the hands of the people to a federal government is not the best of ideas.

As for coat hangers and back alleys, there are alternatives.