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thirdeyeblindis · Jan 23, 2006, 08:45 pm

Ok, this one of the more interesting topics I have come across. I really need some opinions on this one.

Do you believe that the policy decisions of the current Israeli government toward the palestinian state have improved prospects for peace in the middle east.

Personally, I dont feel that they have done enough and that there really cant be peace with Palestine acting the way that they are.

But then again, Palestine really has the right to do such a thing.

oranged · Jan 23, 2006, 08:48 pm

Peace has been achieved before. 740 years ago.

thirdeyeblindis · Jan 23, 2006, 08:52 pm

But how long did peace last? And when did they achieve peace?

snake · Jan 23, 2006, 09:02 pm

There will be no peace, it would be like giving america to mexico and expecting US citizens to smile about it. And we cant give the land back because the isrealis would fight on, even further the jews couldnt be located in a worst region, surrounded by muslims. I personally blame muslims, have you ever heard of them being peaceful?

thirdeyeblindis · Jan 23, 2006, 09:25 pm

But do you not feel that the giving back of the Gaza strip is a big step toward peace therefore making the thread statement's answer yes?

snake · Jan 23, 2006, 09:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: thirdeyeblindis

But do you not feel that the giving back of the Gaza strip is a big step toward peace therefore making the thread statement's answer yes?

No because I think after a while the palestinains will want the rest. But your right it is a step, however you have to remember that not many isrealis gave up their homes willingly. I mean would you give up your home to a guy who would just as soon blow you and your family up?

Milton Bradley · Jan 24, 2006, 01:40 pm

I must confess, I have turned a blind eye to situation over there. Frankly, I'm tired of the whole story, and all of the players. They can just battle it out, and decide the old fashioned way as far as I'm concened at this point.

This conflict has been prolonged for such a period of time that they have effectively dragged the whole world into their battle. ( Quite accidently I'm sure.

)

lsbskins1 · Jan 24, 2006, 02:19 pm

Well, for one thing, as long as this issue is allowed to be cast in the "Good Guy v. Bad Guy" mold, it will never be solved. As usual, this situation is much more complicated than the standard impression most people have been given. Both sides are guilty, both sides are wrong and both sides are right. Who you asign blame depends entirely on how far back in history you believe it is acceptable to go and how deep you are willing to dig. Personally, I believe the shit stew the modern world is dealing with is the co-equal responsibility of both European and Turkish empirialism. Oh, and lest we forget, if the enlightenment had actually taken in many parts of the world, maybe that nasty anti-semitism that made the Jews a persecuted minority in the diaspora would not have been available as that most important catalyst. Peace will only come when both sides come to terms with the fact that neither side is going to disappear and if they want peace in their lives, they are going to have to surrender things that they have both long considered non-negotiable. Both sides will also have to realize that, at least for the foreseeable future, there will be ass-holes who will never accept peace. Some will be hard core, conservative, religious Jews and some will be militant arab-nationalists and these idiotic individuals will shoot and kill and bomb those they view as the enemy. But, I doubt they are that tired of the death and destruction yet. Each side still harbors fantasies of ultimate victory.

Milton Bradley · Jan 24, 2006, 03:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: lsbskins1

Well, for one thing, as long as this issue is allowed to be cast in the "Good Guy v. Bad Guy" mold, it will never be solved. As usual, this situation is much more complicated than the standard impression most people have been given. Both sides are guilty, both sides are wrong and both sides are right. Who you asign blame depends entirely on how far back in history you believe it is acceptable to go and how deep you are willing to dig.

Ah yes, which inevitably leads me to ask the Zionists...

If God was going to award you the Promised Land, why did you not wait for God's invitation?

thirdeyeblindis · Jan 24, 2006, 06:25 pm

But how does all this pretain to the question?

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jan 24, 2006, 06:41 pm

Quote:

Quote by: snake

No because I think after a while the palestinains will want the rest. But your right it is a step, however you have to remember that not many isrealis gave up their homes willingly. I mean would you give up your home to a guy who would just as soon blow you and your family up?

That goes both ways. Palestinians were forced off the lands in the late 40's, with many of them being killed after not moving, only igniting tensions and the beginning of the real Palestinian resistance.

**Matt W** · Jan 24, 2006, 06:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: snake

I personally blame muslims, have you ever heard of them being peaceful?

What a ridiculous statement. You personally obviously have little knowledge outside of the USA, have you? Or even with non-white, non-Christians?

On the topic at hand, in the meanwhile.

Right now, the region is at a significant crossroads, what with the acting PM, Ehud Olmert, saying that Israel needs to withdraw further (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4644950.stm), and Hamas significantly toning down the rhetoric and admitting the possibility of negotiating with Israel in order to gain votes in the forthcoming Palestinian elections (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4640334.stm).

I believe that, if Hamas can take a significant grip on the reins of power (unlike Fatah, who have been riven by infighting - often amongst internal factions), then we could well see a transformation into a Sinn Fein/IRA role - fighting for a Palestinian state 'through the Armalite and the Ballot Box'. The question in my mind, however, is dependent on who wins the forthcoming Israeli elections. Will it be someone who can grit their teeth and play realpolitik with the party who have often called for the destruction of Israel, or will it be back to Ariel Sharon at his worst - or even beyond?

Personally, I'm optimistic about their ever being peace - but I think people who expect a quick-fix instant solution are mad. 20, mebbe 30 years before we see a comparable situation to N.Ireland as it is now, is my guesstimate.

thirdeyeblindis · Jan 24, 2006, 10:50 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

What a ridiculous statement. You personally obviously have little knowledge outside of the USA, have you? Or even with non-white, non-Christians?

On the topic at hand, in the meanwhile.

Right now, the region is at a significant crossroads, what with the acting PM, Ehud Olmert, saying that Israel needs to withdraw further (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4644950.stm), and Hamas significantly toning down the rhetoric and admitting the possibility of negotiating with Israel in order to gain votes in the forthcoming Palestinian elections (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4640334.stm).

I believe that, if Hamas can take a significant grip on the reins of power (unlike Fatah, who have been riven by infighting - often amongst internal factions), then we could well see a transformation into a Sinn Fein/IRA role - fighting for a Palestinian state 'through the Armalite and the Ballot Box'. The question in my mind, however, is dependent on who wins the forthcoming Israeli elections. Will it be someone who can grit their teeth and play realpolitik with the party who have often called for the destruction of Israel, or will it be back to Ariel Sharon at his worst - or even beyond?

Personally, I'm optimistic about their ever being peace - but I think people who expect a quick-fix instant solution are mad. 20, mebbe 30 years before we see a comparable situation to N.Ireland as it is now, is my guesstimate.

Wow, (no sarcasim intended I swear) That is some kind of kick ass opinion and not playing the devil's advocate here, I really agree with you. Nice way of putting it.

lili462 · Jan 24, 2006, 11:13 pm

simply put: never..even if these two come to peace..there will always be someone with a big ego and some sort of weapon..people will always fight..they have since the beginning of time. Not trying to be pessimistic but its life

Morgan_Freeman · Jan 24, 2006, 11:25 pm

I'm with Milton on this one. Everyone involved in this conflict is too damn asinine. None of them really care about peace. They want retribution. If they wanted peace, they could simply form a single state and go on with their lives.

shrike · Jan 25, 2006, 12:46 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Milton Bradley

Ah yes, which inevitably leads me to ask the Zionists...

If God was going to award you the Promised Land, why did you not wait for God's invitation?

What it have to do with God? Zionism is secular movement as any other national movement that was in 19th century.

Quote:

Palestinians were forced off the lands in the late 40's, with many of them being killed after not moving, only igniting tensions and the beginning of the real Palestinian resistance

Source.Please no propaganda sites.

thirdeyeblindis · Jan 25, 2006, 07:19 pm

But dont you think that the giving back of the Gaza strip was a start towards peace?

snake · Jan 25, 2006, 07:57 pm

Matt W

your right it is a ridiculous statement but it is the most logical. Do I blame myself or the christians, you honestly expect me to put blame on us? Your right the palestians were robbed of their land but hey before that it was the isrealites all those centuries ago. They can go around screaming that all they want, lets see if the jews pack up and leave. Just as long as they demand the land back there will be no peace, as I said earlier. As far as Hamas I will never give my support to terrorist, I could care less how pretty a picture they paint. These are people who have killed innocent civilians by the droves, dont you ever forget that.

**Matt W** · Jan 26, 2006, 04:17 am

Quote:

your right it is a ridiculous statement but it is the most logical

Not in the slightest. You have a very skewed version of logic, it would appear. :rolleyes:

As far as Hamas, tough. It looks like they are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinaian people - so you have to deal with them (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4649606.stm). Just like we had to grit our teeth and deal with the US-funded IRA. Welcome to the real world.

leftcider · Jan 26, 2006, 10:14 am

Even if Israel and the US do decide to negotiate with Hamas, it's unlikely a compromise will ever be reached, being that Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a fundamentalist regime.

If Israel does decide to withdraw from the West Bank, it will be unilaterally, as they did in Lebanon.

Either way, this is a prime situation for Israel to fully adopt a fortress mentality against the Palestinians and constructing fortification barriers.

Jan 23, 2006, 08:45 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
thirdeyeblindis Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	Israel Vs. Palestine. Will there ever be peace? Ok, this one of the more interesting topics I have come across. I really need some opinions on this one. Do you believe that the policy decisions of the current Israeli government toward the palestinian state have improved prospects for peace in the middle east. Personally, I dont feel that they have done enough and that there really cant be peace with Palestine acting the way that they are. But then again, Palestine really has the right to do such a thing.

Jan 23, 2006, 08:48 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
oranged fanatic and profound Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 335	Peace has been achieved before. 740 years ago. "It is not power that corrupts but fear. Fear of losing power corrupts those who wield it and fear of the scourge of power corrupts those who are subject to it."- Aung San Suu Kyi

Jan 24, 2006, 02:19 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
lsbskins1 Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,451	Well, for one thing, as long as this issue is allowed to be cast in the "Good Guy v. Bad Guy" mold, it will never be solved. As usual, this situation is much more complicated than the standard impression most people have been given. Both sides are guilty, both sides are wrong and both sides are right. Who you asign blame depends entirely on how far back in history you believe it is acceptable to go and how deep you are willing to dig. Personally, I believe the shit stew the modern world is dealing with is the co-equal responsibility of both European and Turkish empirialism. Oh, and lest we forget, if the enlightenment had actually taken in many parts of the world, maybe that nasty anti-semitism that made the Jews a persecuted minority in the diaspora would not have been available as that most important catalyst. Peace will only come when both sides come to terms with the fact that neither side is going to disappear and if they want peace in their lives, they are going to have to surrender things that they have both long considered non-negotiable. Both sides will also have to realize that, at least for the foreseeable future, there will be ass-holes who will never accept peace. Some will be hard core, conservative, religious Jews and some will be militant arab-nationalists and these idiotic individuals will shoot and kill and bomb those they view as the enemy. But, I doubt they are that tired of the death and destruction yet. Each side still harbors fantasies of ultimate victory. All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay

Jan 24, 2006, 11:13 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
lili462 Bitchin'! Location: ohio Posts: 210	simply put: never..even if these two come to peace..there will always be someone with a big ego and some sort of weapon..people will always fight..they have since the beginning of time. Not trying to be pessimistic but its life It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on peersonal freedom is what it is, okay?. Keep that in mind at all times, thank you.

Jan 24, 2006, 11:25 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	I'm with Milton on this one. Everyone involved in this conflict is too damn asinine. None of them really care about peace. They want retribution. If they wanted peace, they could simply form a single state and go on with their lives. "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jan 23, 2006, 08:52 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
thirdeyeblindis Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	But how long did peace last? And when did they achieve peace?

Jan 23, 2006, 09:02 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
snake Molten Ash Posts: 34	There will be no peace, it would be like giving america to mexico and expecting US citizens to smile about it. And we cant give the land back because the isrealis would fight on, even further the jews couldnt be located in a worst region, surrounded by muslims. I personally blame muslims, have you ever heard of them being peaceful?

Jan 23, 2006, 09:25 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
thirdeyeblindis Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	But do you not feel that the giving back of the Gaza strip is a big step toward peace therefore making the thread statement's answer yes?

Jan 24, 2006, 01:40 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	I must confess, I have turned a blind eye to situation over there. Frankly, I'm tired of the whole story, and all of the players. They can just battle it out, and decide the old fashioned way as far as I'm concened at this point. This conflict has been prolonged for such a period of time that they have effectively dragged the whole world into their battle. ( Quite accidently I'm sure. )

Jan 24, 2006, 06:25 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
thirdeyeblindis Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	But how does all this pretain to the question?

Jan 25, 2006, 07:19 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
thirdeyeblindis Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	But dont you think that the giving back of the Gaza strip was a start towards peace?

Jan 25, 2006, 07:57 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
snake Molten Ash Posts: 34	Matt W your right it is a ridiculous statement but it is the most logical. Do I blame myself or the christians, you honestly expect me to put blame on us? Your right the palestians were robbed of their land but hey before that it was the isrealites all those centuries ago. They can go around screaming that all they want, lets see if the jews pack up and leave. Just as long as they demand the land back there will be no peace, as I said earlier. As far as Hamas I will never give my support to terrorist, I could care less how pretty a picture they paint. These are people who have killed innocent civilians by the droves, dont you ever forget that.

Jan 26, 2006, 10:14 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
leftcider Lord Teh Location: Seattlul, WA Posts: 486	Even if Israel and the US do decide to negotiate with Hamas, it's unlikely a compromise will ever be reached, being that Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a fundamentalist regime. If Israel does decide to withdraw from the West Bank, it will be unilaterally, as they did in Lebanon. Either way, this is a prime situation for Israel to fully adopt a fortress mentality against the Palestinians and constructing fortification barriers. Last edited by leftcider; Jan 26, 2006 at 10:17 am.