Israel Vs. Palestine. Will there ever be peace?

[leftcider]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Ah yes, which inevitably leads me to ask the Zionists... If God was going to award you the Promised Land, why did you not wait for God's invitation?

Much of Zionism has historically been a secular, socialist movement. With examples such as the Dreyfuss Affair in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_Affair) and later the Holocaust occuring in the supposedly tolerant countries of Europe, many came to believe that those of Jewish origin (not just religion) would never be safe without a state.

The establishment of collective farming communities (kibbutzim) and their central role in early modern Israel exemplify the role of Secular Zionism.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike What it have to do with God? Zionism is secular movement as any other national movement that was in 19th century.

What is the reason behind the movement?


Why that would be the fundamental belief that God promised them that land, and that it is there for them to take. The operative word in that last sentence being "take".


My question, which was qualified, stands. Why did they not see fit to wait for God to give it to them, as promised?


A contract is a contract.

[shrike]

What is the reason behind the movement?

What is the reason behind Slovokian[insert any other nation instead] national movement?
and i think leftsider answered you nicely

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike What is the reason behind Slovokian[insert any other nation instead] national movement? and i think leftsider answered you nicely

Yes, he was very nice, but both of managed to avoid addressing the question, or the fundamental belief that drives it.

[shrike]

Yes, he was very nice, but both of managed to avoid addressing the question, or the fundamental belief that drives it

The reason for Zionism as any other national movement its self determination and own state.Its very simple really.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: thirdeyeblindis Do you believe that the policy decisions of the current Israeli government toward the palestinian state have improved prospects for peace in the middle east.

Israel and Palestine must develope peaceful solutions to co-exist.
They have no alternative option(s).

[Athena]

Quote by: Matt W What a ridiculous statement. You personally obviously have little knowledge outside of the USA, have you? Or even with non-white, non-Christians? On the topic at hand, in the meanwhile. Right now, the region is at a significant crossroads, what with the acting PM, Ehud Olmert, saying that Israel needs to withdraw further (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4644950.stm), and Hamas significantly toning down the rhetoric and admitting the possibility of negotiating with Israel in order to gain votes in the forthcoming Palestinian elections (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4640334.stm). I believe that, if Hamas can take a significant grip on the reins of power (unlike Fatah, who have been riven by infighting - often amongst internal factions), then we could well see a transformation into a Sinn Fein/IRA role - fighting for a Palestinian state 'through the Armalite and the Ballot Box'. The question in my mind, however, is dependent on who wins the forthcoming Israeli elections. Will it be someone who can grit their teeth and play realpolitik with the party who have often called for the destruction of Israel, or will it be back to Ariel Sharon at his worst - or even beyond? Personally, I'm optimistic about their ever being peace - but I think people who expect a quick-fix instant solution are mad. 20, mebbe 30 years before we see a comparable situation to N.Ireland as it is now, is my guesstimate.

Matt, you seem to know a lot, so I will ask you, how can there be a Palestinian state when Palestinian is many separate towns, lacking resources for an economy and even good farm land and water. The roads to these Palestinian reservations are controlled by Israelis, and Palestinians are held at road blocks where conditions of prejudice and racial tensions sometimes to lead to abuse of Palestinians. Like this isn't good for commerce, or anything else? Personally I think all of Palestine needs to be connected with the rest of Palestine, or how esle can they have one government?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike The reason for Zionism as any other national movement its self determination and own state.Its very simple really.

You just tap danced around the question again.


In order to have that "national movement", you had to arrive at Statehood. How did they go about achieving that fundamental requirement needed to make your definition valid?

[shrike]

In order to have that "national movement", you had to arrive at Statehood. How did they go about achieving that fundamental requirement needed to make your definition valid?

I dont quite understand you really. Many nations didnt had a state before WW1 after empires have falled apart many nation recieved Statehood.

[Milton Bradley]

You are attempting to define Zionism in place of answering the question. I asked...


If the Zionist's believe that God would award them the "promised land", then why did they not see fit to wait for God to give it to them, as promised?


All of the answers you provided so far were answers to questions I never asked.

[shrike]

If the Zionist's believe that God would award them the "promised land", then why did they not see fit to wait for God to give it to them, as promised?

Most of the Zionists dont believe it. I am on of them.

[jose]

Quote by: shrike Most of the Zionists dont believe it. I am on of them.

so is that, you dont believe g-d promised the land to the tribe of israel?

[shrike]

so is that, you dont believe g-d promised the land to the tribe of israel?

I am an agnostic so i dont believe.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike I am an agnostic so i dont believe.

What qualifies you to speak for all of the Zionists?


I was under the impression that the belief that the land of Isreal belonged to the Jews was a fundamental belief of Zionism, and that was why they suddenly decided to occupy the land in 1948 as the movement gained popularity.

[shrike]

belief that the land of Isreal belonged to the Jews was a fundamental belief of Zionist

Yes it is what it have to do with God?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike Yes it is what it have to do with God?

The promise + the actions = the results


Seemed like simple math to me.

[shrike]

The promise + the actions = the results Seemed like simple math to me.

Again the religious stuff i am already explained that the creation of Zionism have nothing to do with religion because as you pointed it the elements of return to the homeland was all the time in Judaism. The Zionism was created because atmosphere of that time as many other national movements were created, rabid anti-Semitsm as leftsider pointed it and of course secularization of society.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike Again the religious stuff i am already explained that the creation of Zionism have nothing to do with religion because as you pointed it the elements of return to the homeland was all the time in Judaism. The Zionism was created because atmosphere of that time as many other national movements were created, rabid anti-Semitsm as leftsider pointed it and of course secularization of society.

Again, you presume to speak for eveybody united under the banner of Zionism. I don't think you have that authority.


You also allude to the point about the secularization of society somehow lead to the creation a nation state that is very difficult to define. That goes right over my head. I don't even know what you are implying.

[Matt W]

Quote by: Athena Matt, you seem to know a lot, so I will ask you, how can there be a Palestinian state when Palestinian is many separate towns, lacking resources for an economy and even good farm land and water. The roads to these Palestinian reservations are controlled by Israelis, and Palestinians are held at road blocks where conditions of prejudice and racial tensions sometimes to lead to abuse of Palestinians. Like this isn't good for commerce, or anything else? Personally I think all of Palestine needs to be connected with the rest of Palestine, or how esle can they have one government?

Thanks, Athena. Wouldn't say that I do, but I try and read as much as I can on the subject.

For starters, the two main 'areas' that would make up the primary components of a Palestinian state are the Gaza Strip - now under Palestinian Authority control (apart from the airspace & borders) - and the West Bank - which is certain to follow the example of the Gaza Strip and be placed under the direct control of the Palestinian Authority in the near future. These two areas do have International borders (Gaza Strip - Egypt, West Bank - Jordan), and the Egyptian border crossing at Rafah is actually under direct control of the Palestinian Authority.

Personally, with modern communications, I don't honestly see the problem of a state being separated - governance-wise, it shouldn't make any difference at all. The only problem that obviously arises is the transfer of personnel & material from the West Bank to Gaza, and vice versa. Given the sheer number of attacks on their soil, I cannot invisage the Israelis allowing free passage across the borders for years, if not decades. However, a potentially workable solution would be to allow PA 'convoys' (heavily escorted by Israeli Defence Force troops, obviously) to cross from area to area along pre-agreed routes.

As for trade, economy, etc, it's difficult to say. Countries have built themselves up with less, and I believe Palestine - if their fragile democracy remains stable - also have the potential to do so. The sheer amount of aid being received from Muslims across the globe has enabled Hamas, a private organisation - no matter what people may think of its' armed struggle - to provide a very basic welfare state. Can they do more when in power? We shall have to see - Fatah appears to have been rejected as corruption-ridden and inept by the Palestinian people, but can Hamas do better? It's a very tough call, right now.

If you want some background material, try the BBC:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...ns/default.stm

I'd hope that it's a source shrike wouldn't call 'biased'....

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman I'm with Milton on this one. Everyone involved in this conflict is too damn asinine. None of them really care about peace. They want retribution. If they wanted peace, they could simply form a single state and go on with their lives.

Exactly why United States involvement will only bring new enemies and "friends" based on their own benefit. Peace is out of the question.