Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

G. Adams · Oct 18, 2003, 02:21 pm

Again, this is something entirely possible under capitalism. As we are meant to be highlighting flaws of communism, that point is really relevant.

It would be simle enough to deal with, and over time could be refined as new problems came up. So, for example on board video camera's relaying back to bother depots for checking, the vans could could be well armed and timed like security vans are, digital tracking on board so the routes can be mapped and checked.

If someone stole produce on the trip and claimed they were robbed on the way, they could be given armed guard on the following journeys. This would prevent them from doing it again, thus stopping them from developing it into a side business.

But again, why would anyone want to steal these products? They already have any material goods they need, so they would be better served by spending their time in gyms, universities, playing instruments or sports etc There would be no benefit to stealing, unless your a kleptomaniac.

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 10:33 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
So, for example on board video camera's relaying back to bother depots for checking, the vans could could be well armed and timed like security vans are, digital tracking on board so the routes can be mapped and checked.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Great! We'll just take away their freedoms to protect the "Communist State". You know, an easier way is to put a Red Assassin on board to shoot him if he does anything thats going to endanger the glorious Communist State.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Again, this is something entirely possible under capitalism. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Its less possible, because under capitalism, he would be given a commission. Under Communism, because nobody has a chance to suceed (since everyone must be "equal"), thats the only way you can get more out of life.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
But again, why would anyone want to steal these products? They already have any material goods they need, so they would be better served by spending their time in gyms, universities, playing instruments or sports etc <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I thought you said gyms and music and sports events would be banned under Communism.

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 10:36 am

Music banned? This quite absurd. Also Castille, in the US we have security cameras, are you saying that there are little assassins lurking in the shadows. No there are not.

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 11:03 am

But we don't have security cameras in private property......legally security cameras can ONLY be placed on public property. It is illegal for some hobo to put security cameras in your house without your explicit permission.....

Under Communism, because nothing is private, we can put security cameras anywhere.

In fact, thats quite scary. Because everyone owns your home, anyone can come in and sleep on your bed without your permission....

Thank god for guns!

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 11:12 am

No, in the very beginning we would need security cameras in just the depots. After compulsion is done away with there will be no need.

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 12:21 pm

Compulsion will always exist. =P

I don't know why you are of the impression that human desires, instincts and nature will turn themselves off voluntarily. They are not inherent to Capitalism or any one society, culture or government - they are a part of the human being itself. The best we can do is to repress our nature, as most civilized people do, but there will always be those who do not, which leads to violence and crime in the first place.

Have you ever seen the movie Equilibrium (sp)? That isn't so far from the truth as to what a modern-day Communist society would need to resort to in order to remain Communist. Yet even then, there would always be those in power to keep order that would indulge themselves, or in some form seize total control for themselves.

G. Adams · Oct 20, 2003, 02:36 pm

I would react exactly as the rebels do in equilibrium because that is a totalitarian society suppression human creativity and expression. Communism does not in anyway seek to support that kind of action.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 20, 2003, 03:24 pm

What I find most amusing is the belief that those that lack the ambition to make their own way would ever have the guts to start a revolution...

G. Adams · Oct 20, 2003, 03:49 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,)
What I find most amusing is the belief that those that lack the ambition to make their own way would ever have the guts to start a revolution...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I personally am making my own way. I have a long term goal, and it isn't communism, but it is what I believe will help lead to communism. I want to get into politics and try and encourage liberal democracies around the world. I believe that if I am wrong about communism, we'll still have a better world. If I am right, well as I have said before, i believe that a world of liberal democracies will best prepare for communist movements.

And spreading liberal democracies around the world IS an achievable goal.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 20, 2003, 04:07 pm

Irrational, the more social programs that get funded the less effiencnt business gets, the less the social programs work, and the more they are needed. Eventually you are taking 100% of a zero income to do nothing.

castille · Oct 24, 2003, 08:15 am

You ask, "Why are some born poor, and some born rich?"

I ask, "How can I GET rich?"

There are two distinct personalities in the world. The blamer and the doer. The blamer blames everyone for his position; his parents, the government, the conspiracy. The doer doesn't blame, he goes out and seeks to improve his position.

I believe, in fact, born out of POOR parents is better for anyone's position. I was born poor - and its given me the motivation NOT to be poor when I grow up.

Some of my friends who were born rich are the opposite. They have money, but no drive. They have wealth, but no happiness. They have no motivation to better themselves in the world.

nature of reality · Oct 26, 2003, 11:17 pm

So, because some are born poor that gives them the RIGHT to grab a club and steal the wealth of the rich?

Because that is what your argueing. Its right for people with assault rifles to go into HIS house, point a gun at HIS head and say " You don't deserve this, but this other person who was born poor or has need for some reason DOES".

Slaves to need, that is what you would have us be, you sick twisted looter.

Section 8 · Oct 26, 2003, 11:56 pm

I'm not the one who is looting, as the property possessed is stolen. I'm not saying kill the rich as that would be downright disturbing. Redistribution is what I'm calling for. Do you think if I asked the thief nicely than he would give me back my stolen goods? I don't think so.

nature of reality · Oct 27, 2003, 12:25 am

Yes you are, that is excatly what you are advocating. Redistribute? What if i don't want to redistribute? You come to my home with clubs. Looting.

Now, your telling me I looted from the workers in the first place? Lets just take that worker and let him make his mindless motions in the wild, without the guidance of my mind in my machines, etc. Hes robbing me, for everything i create makes his life better even though he puts forth no mental effort. I refer you to my post in the other thread.

G. Adams · Oct 27, 2003, 06:58 am

You have no right over that property to begin with, so there is nothing wrong with it being taken from you. Do you bemoan how wrong it is when the police confiscate stolen goods? Well that is what we would be doing.

G. Adams · Oct 27, 2003, 06:59 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,)
Hes robbing me, for everything i create makes his life better even though he puts forth no mental effort.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually that quite well describes the workers situation. We work and create goods that we ourselves cannot afford to buy back. Our labour makes your life easier.

castille · Oct 27, 2003, 08:30 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
You have no right over that property to begin with, so there is nothing wrong with it being taken from you.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No right? What if I earned it? What if I worked in the sun and toiled hundreds of hours to earn the money for that property?

What you are essentially saying is that the man who works 1 hour a year deserves as much as the man who works 1000.

Section 8 · Oct 27, 2003, 09:37 am

You don't have property rights, because property is a major form of inequality. Unless of course you love inequality.

Impenitent · Oct 27, 2003, 12:49 pm

equality is a LIE... there is no equality... rights are LIES... there are no rights...

there is power... those who have it live, those who don't die...

that is the "law" of the jungle... that is how things are... whine and cry and complain, but only if everyone got together screwed the world even more... it isn't gonna happen...

Oct 18, 2003, 02:21 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Again, this is something entirely possible under capitalism. As we are meant to be highlighting flaws of communism, that point is really relevant. It would be simle enough to deal with, and over time could be refined as new problems came up. So, for example on board video camera's relaying back to bother depots for checking, the vans could could be well armed and timed like security vans are, digital tracking on board so the routes can be mapped and checked. If someone stole produce on the trip and claimed they were robbed on the way, they could be given armed guard on the following journeys. This would prevent them from doing it again, thus stopping them from developing it into a side business. But again, why would anyone want to steal these products? They already have any material goods they need, so they would be better served by spending their time in gyms, universities, playing instruments or sports etc There would be no benefit to stealing, unless your a kleptomaniac. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 20, 2003, 10:33 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by So, for example on board video camera's relaying back to bother depots for checking, the vans could could be well armed and timed like security vans are, digital tracking on board so the routes can be mapped and checked.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Great! We'll just take away their freedoms to protect the "Communist State". You know, an easier way is to put a Red Assassin on board to shoot him if he does anything thats going to endanger the glorious Communist State. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Again, this is something entirely possible under capitalism. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Its less possible, because under capitalism, he would be given a commission. Under Communism, because nobody has a chance to suceed (since everyone must be "equal"), thats the only way you can get more out of life. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by But again, why would anyone want to steal these products? They already have any material goods they need, so they would be better served by spending their time in gyms, universities, playing instruments or sports etc <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I thought you said gyms and music and sports events would be banned under Communism. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:03 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	But we don't have security cameras in private property......legally security cameras can ONLY be placed on public property. It is illegal for some hobo to put security cameras in your house without your explicit permission..... Under Communism, because nothing is private, we can put security cameras anywhere. In fact, thats quite scary. Because everyone owns your home, anyone can come in and sleep on your bed without your permission.... Thank god for guns! Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:21 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Compulsion will always exist. =P I don't know why you are of the impression that human desires, instincts and nature will turn themselves off voluntarily. They are not inherent to Capitalism or any one society, culture or government - they are a part of the human being itself. The best we can do is to repress our nature, as most civilized people do, but there will always be those who do not, which leads to violence and crime in the first place. Have you ever seen the movie Equilibrium (sp)? That isn't so far from the truth as to what a modern-day Communist society would need to resort to in order to remain Communist. Yet even then, there would always be those in power to keep order that would indulge themselves, or in some form seize total control for themselves. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 20, 2003, 02:36 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	I would react exactly as the rebels do in equilibrium because that is a totalitarian society suppression human creativity and expression. Communism does not in anyway seek to support that kind of action. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 20, 2003, 10:36 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Music banned? This quite absurd. Also Castille, in the US we have security cameras, are you saying that there are little assassins lurking in the shadows. No there are not.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:12 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	No, in the very beginning we would need security cameras in just the depots. After compulsion is done away with there will be no need.

Oct 20, 2003, 03:24 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	What I find most amusing is the belief that those that lack the ambition to make their own way would ever have the guts to start a revolution... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 20, 2003, 03:49 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,) What I find most amusing is the belief that those that lack the ambition to make their own way would ever have the guts to start a revolution...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I personally am making my own way. I have a long term goal, and it isn't communism, but it is what I believe will help lead to communism. I want to get into politics and try and encourage liberal democracies around the world. I believe that if I am wrong about communism, we'll still have a better world. If I am right, well as I have said before, i believe that a world of liberal democracies will best prepare for communist movements. And spreading liberal democracies around the world IS an achievable goal. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 20, 2003, 04:07 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Irrational, the more social programs that get funded the less effiencnt business gets, the less the social programs work, and the more they are needed. Eventually you are taking 100% of a zero income to do nothing. Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 24, 2003, 08:15 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	You ask, "Why are some born poor, and some born rich?" I ask, "How can I GET rich?" There are two distinct personalities in the world. The blamer and the doer. The blamer blames everyone for his position; his parents, the government, the conspiracy. The doer doesn't blame, he goes out and seeks to improve his position. I believe, in fact, born out of POOR parents is better for anyone's position. I was born poor - and its given me the motivation NOT to be poor when I grow up. Some of my friends who were born rich are the opposite. They have money, but no drive. They have wealth, but no happiness. They have no motivation to better themselves in the world. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 26, 2003, 11:17 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
nature of reality Molten Ash Posts: 134	So, because some are born poor that gives them the RIGHT to grab a club and steal the wealth of the rich? Because that is what your argueing. Its right for people with assault rifles to go into HIS house, point a gun at HIS head and say " You don't deserve this, but this other person who was born poor or has need for some reason DOES". Slaves to need, that is what you would have us be, you sick twisted looter. Whats wrong with Liberty?

Oct 26, 2003, 11:56 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I'm not the one who is looting, as the property possessed is stolen. I'm not saying kill the rich as that would be downright disturbing. Redistribution is what I'm calling for. Do you think if I asked the thief nicely than he would give me back my stolen goods? I don't think so.

Oct 27, 2003, 12:25 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
nature of reality Molten Ash Posts: 134	Yes you are, that is excatly what you are advocating. Redistribute? What if i don't want to redistribute? You come to my home with clubs. Looting. Now, your telling me I looted from the workers in the first place? Lets just take that worker and let him make his mindless motions in the wild, without the guidance of my mind in my machines, etc. Hes robbing me, for everything i create makes his life better even though he puts forth no mental effort. I refer you to my post in the other thread. Whats wrong with Liberty?

Oct 27, 2003, 06:58 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	You have no right over that property to begin with, so there is nothing wrong with it being taken from you. Do you bemoan how wrong it is when the police confiscate stolen goods? Well that is what we would be doing. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 27, 2003, 06:59 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,) Hes robbing me, for everything i create makes his life better even though he puts forth no mental effort.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually that quite well describes the workers situation. We work and create goods that we ourselves cannot afford to buy back. Our labour makes your life easier. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 27, 2003, 08:30 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) You have no right over that property to begin with, so there is nothing wrong with it being taken from you.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No right? What if I earned it? What if I worked in the sun and toiled hundreds of hours to earn the money for that property? What you are essentially saying is that the man who works 1 hour a year deserves as much as the man who works 1000. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 27, 2003, 09:37 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	You don't have property rights, because property is a major form of inequality. Unless of course you love inequality.

Oct 27, 2003, 12:49 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	equality is a LIE... there is no equality... rights are LIES... there are no rights... there is power... those who have it live, those who don't die... that is the "law" of the jungle... that is how things are... whine and cry and complain, but only if everyone got together screwed the world even more... it isn't gonna happen... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...