Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

mouser2112 · Apr 4, 2004, 04:02 pm

Here is a new poll about the presidential elections.

lostkiwi · Apr 4, 2004, 07:21 pm

What does it say about the state of our political system when I'd have to choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils on this list?

Sad, sad, sad.

bentodd · Apr 6, 2004, 10:19 pm

How could you possibly choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils. In my opinion Bush, Kerry, and Nader should be in a poll to see who is more of a socialist. Do you have any idea who Gary Nolan is. He is by far the least evil of them all.

Benjamin Todd
The Gary Nolan activist committee
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gary-nolan-a...ivist-committee
Nolan campaign coordinator Vermont

Apr 6, 2004, 10:38 pm

I would not dream of granting even the semblence of legitimacy to this deadly farce. No one has the authority to control another against his will, and certainly not the authority to transfer this absent authority to another to do his bidding for him.

Stop the vote!
http://www.zetetics.com/mac/hitler.htm

Suburbanite · Apr 7, 2004, 12:22 am

As much as I think Libertarians are cold and inhumane, they have my vote this time around because at least they are a group of honest little fuckers. I have yet to be able to trust Nader, though he is a bit kinder in his philosophies. Sigh... I would have been proud to vote for Dean though.

Apr 7, 2004, 12:46 am

Though I cannot imagine having the ability to igore the attrocities of the state in any form, how can you claim that the Libertarian Party is cold an dinhumane, when they are the only ones seeking power who have stepped up offering assistance to anyone at all in the last 30+ year of their existence?

It is not as if the Statist party, of two names, or the other versions of the statists party: communists, greens, etc. are any different..

commonsense · Apr 7, 2004, 12:53 am

Lightbearer, please "enlighten" me.

What are you referring to in the above post, quote:
"...Libertarian party...are the only ones...offering assistance..." ?

I would hope the "assistance" they offer is freedom from government usurpation, and freedom from oppressive taxation---the only thing anyone needs... unless there's something in the Libertarian platform that has eluded me.

Apr 7, 2004, 08:33 am

Commonsense, You got where I was going with it. While the LP itself has many problems, and of course is fundamentally flawed in the same manner that necessarily all political parties are flawed, they are the least of the evils. At least they have actually tried to reduce the size of government.

Sandy · Apr 7, 2004, 02:24 pm

Welcome Ben Todd! I certainly put my vote for Gary Nolan and will jump in 100% after the May Convention. He is a good candidate (even if we have some minor disagreements)

5010 · Apr 7, 2004, 02:46 pm

I'm going with LP this time around, although it would be nice if there were more pro-life libertarians.

PelagiusLives · Apr 7, 2004, 03:38 pm

[quote=bentodd,]How could you possibly choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils. In my opinion Bush, Kerry, and Nader should be in a poll to see who is more of a socialist. Do you have any idea who Gary Nolan is. He is by far the least evil of them all.<<

Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush. If that prospect excites you, then by all means vote for Nolan.

Pelagius Lives (and considers Nov. 2 critical for America)

antiacus · Apr 7, 2004, 03:45 pm

I think that it's that kind of thinking, Pelaguis, that has ensured that no third party could ever get a foot-hold in America.

celestialcircle · Apr 7, 2004, 09:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
Sigh... I would have been proud to vote for Dean though.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Dean truly did know how to speak, i live in iowa and was lucky enough to witness all the caucus stuff first hand (although i did not participate).

"You got where I was going with it. While the LP itself has many problems, and of course is fundamentally flawed in the same manner that necessarily all political parties are flawed, they are the least of the evils" Lightbearer

No, a political party is necessary to bring change. Nader wont even get on all the 50 states ballots because he doesnt have a political party to help him out. And when there is a concrete philosophy that sorrunds the political party (which is unique to the LP and mabye the NL), then you will find that its members are not compromising their views to fit the party.

"I'm going with LP this time around, although it would be nice if there were more pro-life libertarians."

Im a pro-life Libertarian, but a believe, like gary, that it is a states rights issue. The reason why i dont think abortion is murder (and therefore a federal matter) is because often times an abortion is necessary to save a dying mother.

"Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush"

I dont think id notice if Kerry would have been in the white house four the last for years rather than bush.

And yes, i voted for Nolan.

Suburbanite · Apr 7, 2004, 09:23 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
Though I cannot imagine having the ability to igore the attrocities of the state in any form, how can you claim that the Libertarian Party is cold an dinhumane, when they are the only ones seeking power who have stepped up offering assistance to anyone at all in the last 30+ year of their existence?

It is not as if the Statist party, of two names, or the other versions of the statists party: communists, greens, etc. are any different..<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, just their economic philosophies neglect to incorporate that human beings are involved. Too Machiavellian, it has no human touch. They are honest about it though, unlike Republicans and Democrats. Now, the Green Party is just as honest, but Ralph Nader is not running as a Green this time around, and I am wary of the reasoning.

Suburbanite · Apr 7, 2004, 09:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PelagiusLives,)

Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush. If that prospect excites you, then by all means vote for Nolan.

Pelagius Lives (and considers Nov. 2 critical for America)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You will have to explain to me how a vote for Kerry is not just a vote for another Bush.

Zeebadee · Apr 7, 2004, 10:12 pm

If we don't start voting for something other than the two major parties, we'll never get any changes. Only when the &$%^# politicians have to really worry about a third party will we start getting candidates that actually pay attention to what the voters have to say.

I'd like to see Alan Keyes name on the ballot.

bentodd · Apr 7, 2004, 11:27 pm

All very good. I am finding alot of people who are supporting Nolan this time arround including Republicans, Democrats, Greens, and independents. This will be an interesting election year.

I got the chance to meet Gary Nolan this last monday in South Burlington Vermont. He will make an impact on this election. Just watch.

By the way if there is anyone here from Vermont I am the new Gary Nolan campaign coordinator for Vermont and we are looking for new volunteers.

Ben Todd
The Gary Nolan activist committee
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gary-nolan-a...ivist-committee
http://nolan2004.meetup.com

Apr 8, 2004, 12:05 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No, just their economic philosophies neglect to incorporate that human beings are involved. Too Machiavellian, it has no human touch.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I would recommend then that you not ignore all of the overwhelming social issues that the LP and libertarians in general address. Certainly the issue of personal freedom is not cold, nor inhumane. No other party even begins to recognize the value of the individual, of individual experience, or indvidual knowledge. Surely you cannot get more personal, more humane, more compassionate than that and still advocate any political system whatsoever! :)

Suburbanite · Apr 8, 2004, 12:28 am

"their economic philosophies"

mouser2112 · Apr 8, 2004, 12:51 am

A vote for Nolan will not be a vote for Bush in my state since our state is solidly Republican in Presidential Elections. Besides, how can you vote for Kerry or Bush they are basically the same. Both supported the Patriot Act. Both will increase spending. etc....

View Poll Results: Who will you vote for in the next presidential election?
George Bush	13	21.31%
John Kerry	21	34.43%
Gary Nolan	14	22.95%
Ralph Nader	7	11.48%
Other	6	9.84%
Voters: 61. You may not vote

Apr 6, 2004, 10:19 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
bentodd Molten Ash Posts: 76	How could you possibly choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils. In my opinion Bush, Kerry, and Nader should be in a poll to see who is more of a socialist. Do you have any idea who Gary Nolan is. He is by far the least evil of them all. Benjamin Todd The Gary Nolan activist committee http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gary-nolan-a...ivist-committee Nolan campaign coordinator Vermont Whant to see a Libertarian get elected? I have recieved the Libertarian and Republican nominations.www.toddforhouse.com Benjamin Todd Candidate for Vermont House

Apr 7, 2004, 12:53 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 333	Lightbearer, please "enlighten" me. What are you referring to in the above post, quote: "...Libertarian party...are the only ones...offering assistance..." ? I would hope the "assistance" they offer is freedom from government usurpation, and freedom from oppressive taxation---the only thing anyone needs... unless there's something in the Libertarian platform that has eluded me. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Apr 7, 2004, 02:46 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
5010 mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,284	I'm going with LP this time around, although it would be nice if there were more pro-life libertarians. - solo (my site)

Apr 7, 2004, 09:04 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
celestialcircle Sedimentary Rock Location: Taiwan Posts: 3	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Sigh... I would have been proud to vote for Dean though.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Dean truly did know how to speak, i live in iowa and was lucky enough to witness all the caucus stuff first hand (although i did not participate). "You got where I was going with it. While the LP itself has many problems, and of course is fundamentally flawed in the same manner that necessarily all political parties are flawed, they are the least of the evils" Lightbearer No, a political party is necessary to bring change. Nader wont even get on all the 50 states ballots because he doesnt have a political party to help him out. And when there is a concrete philosophy that sorrunds the political party (which is unique to the LP and mabye the NL), then you will find that its members are not compromising their views to fit the party. "I'm going with LP this time around, although it would be nice if there were more pro-life libertarians." Im a pro-life Libertarian, but a believe, like gary, that it is a states rights issue. The reason why i dont think abortion is murder (and therefore a federal matter) is because often times an abortion is necessary to save a dying mother. "Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush" I dont think id notice if Kerry would have been in the white house four the last for years rather than bush. And yes, i voted for Nolan.

Apr 4, 2004, 04:02 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
mouser2112 Molten Ash Posts: 32	Here is a new poll about the presidential elections.

Apr 4, 2004, 07:21 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
lostkiwi Molten Ash Posts: 60	What does it say about the state of our political system when I'd have to choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils on this list? Sad, sad, sad.

Apr 6, 2004, 10:38 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	I would not dream of granting even the semblence of legitimacy to this deadly farce. No one has the authority to control another against his will, and certainly not the authority to transfer this absent authority to another to do his bidding for him. Stop the vote! http://www.zetetics.com/mac/hitler.htm

Apr 7, 2004, 12:22 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	As much as I think Libertarians are cold and inhumane, they have my vote this time around because at least they are a group of honest little fuckers. I have yet to be able to trust Nader, though he is a bit kinder in his philosophies. Sigh... I would have been proud to vote for Dean though.

Apr 7, 2004, 12:46 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Though I cannot imagine having the ability to igore the attrocities of the state in any form, how can you claim that the Libertarian Party is cold an dinhumane, when they are the only ones seeking power who have stepped up offering assistance to anyone at all in the last 30+ year of their existence? It is not as if the Statist party, of two names, or the other versions of the statists party: communists, greens, etc. are any different..

Apr 7, 2004, 08:33 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Commonsense, You got where I was going with it. While the LP itself has many problems, and of course is fundamentally flawed in the same manner that necessarily all political parties are flawed, they are the least of the evils. At least they have actually tried to reduce the size of government.

Apr 7, 2004, 02:24 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 251	Welcome Ben Todd! I certainly put my vote for Gary Nolan and will jump in 100% after the May Convention. He is a good candidate (even if we have some minor disagreements)

Apr 7, 2004, 03:38 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
PelagiusLives Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	[quote=bentodd,]How could you possibly choose G.W. as the lesser of all evils. In my opinion Bush, Kerry, and Nader should be in a poll to see who is more of a socialist. Do you have any idea who Gary Nolan is. He is by far the least evil of them all.<< Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush. If that prospect excites you, then by all means vote for Nolan. Pelagius Lives (and considers Nov. 2 critical for America)

Apr 7, 2004, 03:45 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
antiacus Sedimentary Rock Location: Springfield, Oregon Posts: 9	I think that it's that kind of thinking, Pelaguis, that has ensured that no third party could ever get a foot-hold in America.

Apr 7, 2004, 09:23 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,) Though I cannot imagine having the ability to igore the attrocities of the state in any form, how can you claim that the Libertarian Party is cold an dinhumane, when they are the only ones seeking power who have stepped up offering assistance to anyone at all in the last 30+ year of their existence? It is not as if the Statist party, of two names, or the other versions of the statists party: communists, greens, etc. are any different..<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, just their economic philosophies neglect to incorporate that human beings are involved. Too Machiavellian, it has no human touch. They are honest about it though, unlike Republicans and Democrats. Now, the Green Party is just as honest, but Ralph Nader is not running as a Green this time around, and I am wary of the reasoning.

Apr 7, 2004, 09:24 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PelagiusLives,) Nonetheless, a vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote to ensure four more years of Bush. If that prospect excites you, then by all means vote for Nolan. Pelagius Lives (and considers Nov. 2 critical for America)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You will have to explain to me how a vote for Kerry is not just a vote for another Bush.

Apr 7, 2004, 10:12 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,769	If we don't start voting for something other than the two major parties, we'll never get any changes. Only when the &$%^# politicians have to really worry about a third party will we start getting candidates that actually pay attention to what the voters have to say. I'd like to see Alan Keyes name on the ballot. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Apr 7, 2004, 11:27 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
bentodd Molten Ash Posts: 76	All very good. I am finding alot of people who are supporting Nolan this time arround including Republicans, Democrats, Greens, and independents. This will be an interesting election year. I got the chance to meet Gary Nolan this last monday in South Burlington Vermont. He will make an impact on this election. Just watch. By the way if there is anyone here from Vermont I am the new Gary Nolan campaign coordinator for Vermont and we are looking for new volunteers. Ben Todd The Gary Nolan activist committee http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gary-nolan-a...ivist-committee http://nolan2004.meetup.com Whant to see a Libertarian get elected? I have recieved the Libertarian and Republican nominations.www.toddforhouse.com Benjamin Todd Candidate for Vermont House

Apr 8, 2004, 12:05 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No, just their economic philosophies neglect to incorporate that human beings are involved. Too Machiavellian, it has no human touch.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I would recommend then that you not ignore all of the overwhelming social issues that the LP and libertarians in general address. Certainly the issue of personal freedom is not cold, nor inhumane. No other party even begins to recognize the value of the individual, of individual experience, or indvidual knowledge. Surely you cannot get more personal, more humane, more compassionate than that and still advocate any political system whatsoever! :)

Apr 8, 2004, 12:28 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	"their economic philosophies"

Apr 8, 2004, 12:51 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
mouser2112 Molten Ash Posts: 32	A vote for Nolan will not be a vote for Bush in my state since our state is solidly Republican in Presidential Elections. Besides, how can you vote for Kerry or Bush they are basically the same. Both supported the Patriot Act. Both will increase spending. etc....